The Tone Thread

[Minerman]

Here's one of my first attempts at using a real amp/cab/mic...AFAIK this is the Ibanez RG350DX (stock, before the p'up swap) straight into the Blackstar HT-5 (stock 12" Blackbird speaker), with the '57...



I have no idea about the amp settings, as I didn't copy/paste the amp settings/signal chain for quite a while after the thread got rollin'...

[Greg_L]

I know you can pull off a metal tone dude, do it!!!

I really don't know anything about metal. It's not a style or sound I've ever been interested in. I guess tomorrow I'll fire up the 800 and slam it with the Tube Screamer! Lol.

[Greg_L]

Here's one of my first attempts at using a real amp/cab/mic...AFAIK this is the Ibanez RG350DX (stock, before the p'up swap) straight into the Blackstar HT-5 (stock 12" Blackbird speaker), with the '57...



I have no idea about the amp settings, as I didn't copy/paste the amp settings/signal chain for quite a while after the thread got rollin'...

Well fuck, that actually sounds pretty good!

I played an HT-5 just the other day and it wasn't that bad at all. I was shocked.

[Minerman]

I really don't know anything about metal. It's not a style or sound I've ever been interested in. I guess tomorrow I'll fire up the 800 and slam it with the Tube Screamer! Lol.

To me, that's what metal is, & will always be dude...
I've been meaning to throw some clips of the Mini Jubilee with the SD-1 as a clean boost, instant 80's cock-rock...

Well fuck, that actually sounds pretty good!

I played an HT-5 just the other day and it wasn't that bad at all. I was shocked.

Yeah man, looking back, the biggest issue I had with it was it was a dark sounding amp & didn't have the bright, percussive Marshall-y thing that I was expecting (duh... )...
I bought the Greenback 1x12 not long after that, & was almost convinced to buy an eq to put in the fx loop, but never did...I ended up flipping the HT-5, then got the Egnater Tweaker, which eventually led to the 1w Marshall DSL...

Looking back, I could've made any of those amps work, but I just wasn't happy with 'em...I was pretty green about this shit too, so it was a "learn as I go" thing...

I'm not gonna hold my breath, but I'm gonna wait to see what Marshall releases in the next little while, you never know, they might have something based on how they built/designed the Mini Jube that would be cool...Again, not gonna hold my breath, but I am pretty curious to see what they release...If that turns out to be something I'm not interested in (which is most likely), I still might get something from Ceriatone...

Before any of that happens, I'm planning on buying an attenuator, the Weber Mass 200...For the price, I think that's about the best deal out there, considering the Rivera & other models...The attenuator would make it possible for me to use big amps again even with the ISO cab, as long as I keep an eye on things...

Another question: Would it be safe to run the EVH's pre-amp through the Mini Jube's power section via the fx loops??? I know I'd have to have a load/cab connected to both, but would it be safe to do this???

[Greg_L]

Another question: Would it be safe to run the EVH's pre-amp through the Mini Jube's power section via the fx loops??? I know I'd have to have a load/cab connected to both, but would it be safe to do this???

Um, yeah I think so. What do you gain from that?

[Minerman]

Another question: Would it be safe to run the EVH's pre-amp through the Mini Jube's power section via the fx loops??? I know I'd have to have a load/cab connected to both, but would it be safe to do this???

Um, yeah I think so. What do you gain from that?

EL34's instead of EL84's...The EL84's fart out & was wondering if it'd make a difference...It might not make a bit of difference, but it might also sound good...I'm gonna try this tomorrow & I'll throw some clips of the SD-1 > Jubilee too...

[rayc]

I'm really old - the sound of metal guitars is, to me, the sound of Tommy Iommi standard tuning & dropped.
After that comes hard rock guitar which is Budgie, Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple etc
THEN pop rock guitar like Slade & AC/DC
The pop guitar like Bowie, The Sweet & Bolan
All have good guitar sounds made by amps rather than effects - though I'd probably reconsider deep Purple as I prefer the organ over driven into a Marshall amp to the guitar.

[Greg_L]

I'm really old - the sound of metal guitars is, to me, the sound of Tommy Iommi standard tuning & dropped.
After that comes hard rock guitar which is Budgie, Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple etc
THEN pop rock guitar like Slade & AC/DC
The pop guitar like Bowie, The Sweet & Bolan
All have good guitar sounds made by amps rather than effects - though I'd probably reconsider deep Purple as I prefer the organ over driven into a Marshall amp to the guitar.

"Metal" guitar has gotten to a level of gain that I just can't relate to. And the downtuning. Yuck. Never mind that modern metal music itself is just shit. I think the birth of thrash metal in the 80s and popularization in the 90s progressed the metal genre but regressed the guitar tones. To my untrained ear, Pantera is like the end of old school metal and the beginning of what it is now. And Dimebag Darrell is like the Randy Rhoads of modern metal. Except Randy Rhoads had way way better metal tone. I can at least sit through and appreciate some, a few, Ozzy/Randy Roads songs, sounds, and guitar playing. Pantera and Dimebag's tone is just shit from beginning to end.

[JD01]

Greg, I can't mess about with the other blends 'cos I don't have a DAW with me at work, but I listened to the 50/50 blend - to me they sounded close to identical. If I didn't know they were captured in a different way I would likely say that they were identical.

Ughh... metal guitar tone. There are actually some decent ones, the earlier Metallica albums before they switched to Rectifiers sound good.. then they just got shitter and shitter until the latest album, where they seem to have stopped trynig to keep up with the metal kids, dial back the gain and write some riffs.

Dimebag's tone was awful, sounds like my Peavey Bandit on "Thrash" mode. I think he was mainly a solid state player too. Although i was never into Pantera.

Greg, was the Blackstar you tried a Mk2 HT Series? The MK2 Blackstars are much improved.

[JD01]

Here's one of my first attempts at using a real amp/cab/mic...AFAIK this is the Ibanez RG350DX (stock, before the p'up swap) straight into the Blackstar HT-5 (stock 12" Blackbird speaker), with the '57...



I have no idea about the amp settings, as I didn't copy/paste the amp settings/signal chain for quite a while after the thread got rollin'...

Shit, Miner - that sounds much better than any of my early attempts at miking up my Blackstar before I started adding pedals to it to tighten up the mush.

[rayc]

"Metal" guitar has gotten to a level of gain that I just can't relate to. And the downtuning. Yuck. Never mind that modern metal music itself is just shit. I think the birth of thrash metal in the 80s and popularization in the 90s progressed the metal genre but regressed the guitar tones. To my untrained ear, Pantera is like the end of old school metal and the beginning of what it is now. And Dimebag Darrell is like the Randy Rhoads of modern metal. Except Randy Rhoads had way way better metal tone. I can at least sit through and appreciate some, a few, Ozzy/Randy Roads songs, sounds, and guitar playing. Pantera and Dimebag's tone is just shit from beginning to end.

I dislike downtuning - Sabbath did it for 2 albums from what I've read - he kept going back to standard. I suppose he was tempted by less pressure on his decapitated finger.
Rhodes - I can listen for a bit but there's too much twiddle diddle going on for my liking. I bought a couple of early Ozzy solos - Blizzard & Diary but just couldn't get into them.
Pantera & Dimebag - blahhhhh.
I think the only modernish metal bad I've had an interest in was Helmet - and they were more hard rock with a ridiculous blunt hammer to the skull tone - but I liked the songs...
[BBvideo=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3a8Ow-DoAw[/BBvideo]
Then there's the snare sound - really silly.
I think they are also the only band of people who play in long shorts, (the symbol of modern metal & Grunge both), that I've bought an album of.

[JD01]

I actually quite like Randy Rhodes's playing, find it quite melodic. I've not listened to much of it though.

[Greg_L]

Greg, I can't mess about with the other blends 'cos I don't have a DAW with me at work, but I listened to the 50/50 blend - to me they sounded close to identical. If I didn't know they were captured in a different way I would likely say that they were identical.

Okay good. They do sound pretty damn near identical. Here's my impressions:

I tried to go into this with an open mind, and I did it pretty much exactly the way the long haired slob in the video described, and it worked out exactly as I suspected it would - there's no fucking difference. The only differences there can be is in my playing because both takes are unique, but there's no tone difference. To me, the "blend in the mixer on the way in" method is completely useless unless you A) only have one interface input, or B) have preamps that truly color the sound in a good way. And who only has one input? Seriously. Even the most low-budget interfaces have two channels, right? The guy in the video specified that the Metallica engineer used a particular Behringer mixer with specific preamps. I used what I had on hand. Maybe the Behringer is the magic bullet and that's the difference. But I bet not. Metallica's Black Album would have sold exactly the same with or without this method of guitar tracking. This to me looks like a case of bored big budget studio engineers doing things just because they can and then that info gets leaked out and internet plebeians drool over it because "Metallica". This is a fucking stupid idea. Lol. The extra steps, and extra cabling, and extra work to set it up is fucking pointless. And while I totally agree with the idea of committing to a sound and running with it, this takes that idea too far. Commit to an amp sound. Dial in your amp and run with it. Set your mics smartly and commit to that. That's what you commit to. With this method, you're permanently stuck with the mic blend you set in the mixer. You're making mix decisions before the mix even exists. Then what? You EQ the snot out of it, and by then, what's the point? If you're just going to have to murder it with EQ, then just record it like normal and murder it with EQ. You gain nothing from this method. This method is idiotic and that Spectre metal guy should be ashamed of himself for promoting this idiocy.

TL/DR: The mixer idea is dumb. Run your two mics into separate tracks in the DAW and blend them there.

Greg, was the Blackstar you tried a Mk2 HT Series? The MK2 Blackstars are much improved.

No idea. It was a little tiny HT-5 combo that sounded surprisingly good for it's size and being Blackstar.

[JD01]

Cheers, Greg - that's one idea for me to knock off my list.

If it was a new HT5 in a shop then it was probably a MK2. The bigger shops I've been in recently told me there aren't many MK1s left new.

[Greg_L]

Cheers, Greg - that's one idea for me to knock off my list.

By all means try it for yourself if you want. I'm always about people trying things. But I can tell you right here right now that it will not do you any good. I'm pretty confident about saying that. At best there will be no change in your recorded tone. At worst...there are all kinds of at worsts that can happen.

The "danger" of stuff like this is what I've described before - it's totally monkey see monkey do. It's internet over-information. Impressionable people desperate for info and tricks go crazy for this stuff. So some engineer tracked guitars on one famous album with this method 25 years ago. Okay, great. We don't have the luxury of hearing any alternative tracks from that session so we just have to go with it. We do know that professional studios were not limited to inputs or track counts in 1991...or whenever it was. And at that point in their career, Metallica could have gone into any studio with any gear and used any engineer they wanted. The production of that album, for that time, was pretty top notch. The songs....meh. But it sounded good for what it was. It was probably the best sounding metal album made up to that point. So that counts for something. But would it have been worse without this method of guitar tracking? No one knows, but I strongly believe that not one single person would know the difference. And for the little home recorder guy, it's just unnecessary hassle with no real benefit. There are umpteen infinity million number of things that will make home recorded guitar tracks better before you get to this mixer idea.

[Minerman]

Greg's opinion on the mixer thing is pretty much what I thought it'd be...lol...

On the "metal" thing, for me, there are a few bands (very few) that popped up after hair metal died that I like, but not many...I can't stand the down-tuned shitty sounding scooped-mid guitars, & hate the cookie-monster vocals even more...I think some of these guys are technically brilliant as players/musicians, but for me, it's about the band & songs...

Jdude: Not sure, but I think the HT-5 I had was a 2nd version, mine had a 12" speaker, IIRC, the 1st had a 10"...It wasn't a bad amp, it just wasn't great to me...I'd thought about buying an HT-5 head (they're pretty cheap used), but it wouldn't do anything the amps I already have do...

[SweetDan]

Hello new speaker...goodbye wolly-ness!!!

I'm gonna interrupt just a bit, sorry.

The other day I ordered a new speaker to throw in my Vox AD30VT (early-gen modeling amp). The new speaker was delivered today.

And WOW! does it record better than the old/stock one - take a gander (or it's aural equivalent) at this:

http://eastofcleveland.com/m/speakerUpg ... nCajun.mp3

(You don't need to listen to everything; the point is clearly made even with the first segment. However, if you're listening to the whole thing, there are 11 different groups of sound segments in the recording; each has ~25s with the stock speaker, followed by ~25s with the new speaker.)

Eminence 10"/75w/8ohm Rajun Cajun

Tele-clone, bridge p/u with 100% tone/volume -> amp* -> SM57 2" from grille on-axis dead center

*Amp notes: since it's a modeling amp, I actually recorded a snippet of each of the amp models. They are:

Botique CL (model of a ?)
Black 2x12 (model of a Fender twin or deluxe or something like that)
Tweed 4x10 (model of a Bassman)
AC15
AC30TB
UK '70s (70's Marshall model)
UK '80s (80's Marshall model)
UK Modern (90's Marshall model)
Numetal (?)
US Higain (model of a Mesa?)
Botique OD (?)

For this comparison I didn't futz around w/gain or eq settings, I just went with the default/preset options on each amp model. (I did bypass all the on-board f/x presets with each model, however.)

[Armistice]

Thanks Greg and Miner for your feedback on yesterday's song idea. I've retracked and used a janglier/thinner sound on both guitars and hopefully this sounds better - it does to me.

To save anyone else hunting down the post from yesterday, here's the first clip I put up:
Proj 12 song idea take 1

And here's this morning's retrack: Proj 12 song idea take 2

The guitar vs. bass+drums mix might be a bit different, but it's mainly the guitar tone I'm interested in - the rest is just there for context.

All comments appreciated...

[Greg_L]

Hello new speaker...goodbye wolly-ness!!!

I'm gonna interrupt just a bit, sorry.

The other day I ordered a new speaker to throw in my Vox AD30VT (early-gen modeling amp). The new speaker was delivered today.

And WOW! does it record better than the old/stock one -

Yes it does. Those clean and light crunch tones sound way better than what you were getting before. Nice upgrade!

Thanks Greg and Miner for your feedback on yesterday's song idea. I've retracked and used a janglier/thinner sound on both guitars and hopefully this sounds better - it does to me.

To save anyone else hunting down the post from yesterday, here's the first clip I put up:
Proj 12 song idea take 1

And here's this morning's retrack: Proj 12 song idea take 2

The guitar vs. bass+drums mix might be a bit different, but it's mainly the guitar tone I'm interested in - the rest is just there for context.

All comments appreciated...

Yes that is definitely better IMO. I think you can go even cleaner still and it'll sound awesome. But this is definitely an improvement to me.

[Minerman]

Hello new speaker...goodbye wolly-ness!!!

I'm gonna interrupt just a bit, sorry.

The other day I ordered a new speaker to throw in my Vox AD30VT (early-gen modeling amp). The new speaker was delivered today.

And WOW! does it record better than the old/stock one

Huge difference man, that's a complete game-changer...I've never used any Eminence speakers, but I've read a lot of good things about 'em...Your clips sound like night/day, they now have the twang a tele is supposed to have...

Thanks Greg and Miner for your feedback on yesterday's song idea. I've retracked and used a janglier/thinner sound on both guitars and hopefully this sounds better - it does to me.

The guitar vs. bass+drums mix might be a bit different, but it's mainly the guitar tone I'm interested in - the rest is just there for context.

All comments appreciated...

Cool beans Armi, the guitars do sound a little better, they're a little brighter, but like Gerg mentioned, you could probably go a little more with the high end...The mix/mastering thing I mentioned yesterday does have some effect on the guitars, but most likely it's not gonna be drastic, so in short, you can probably brighten 'em up a little more without any worries...