The Tone Thread

New Guitar Day? Obsessed with tone? 10 on the volume dial not enough? Celestion vs. Electrovoice? Cum in, feel the noize.
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Greg_L
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Re: The Tone Thread

Post by Greg_L »

Lol. You could have given me one thousand guesses with a billion dollars on the line and I never would have guessed that.

It's good to know to A/B now though. JP's guitar tones definitely have more mids and smoother highs.
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Re: The Tone Thread

Post by Minerman »

Greg_L wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:39 pm Lol. You could have given me one thousand guesses with a billion dollars on the line and I never would have guessed that.

It's good to know to A/B now though. JP's guitar tones definitely have more mids and smoother highs.
Yeah dude, we're about the same age, but I think we waded very different parts of the creek growing up... :biggrin:

The 2-mic thing might work good on this dude...It needs a lot of reverb too IMO, especially the guitars...

I think I got in the ballpark with the drums too, needs more room/verb in spots too though...I gotta say I think these fake drums sound better than anything else I've used, that's Superior 3 by itself...
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Re: The Tone Thread

Post by SweetDan »

Here's a thing I just did: in attempting to make a sound like the chorus from "In The End" on Dookie by Green Day, I thought I'd take a methodical approach to obtaining similar tones:

1) listen to their sound
2) set up my amp, trying to get the sound as close as I could by memory
3) record it
4) listen again and compare
5) tweak the sound w/EQ in the DAW to make it sound more like the original

Granted, mine will never sound like theirs...but, by following that approach, I did make mine sound better.

Then the obvious occurred to me: wouldn't it sound better if I improved the EQ on the amp first, and recorded that sound, rather than messing around with EQ in the DAW?

The following is the result of *that* experiment.

http://eastofcleveland.com/m/moarGeetar ... riment.mp3

0:00-0:17 - take 1, raw
0:18-0:34 - take 2, raw

(I left out the part where you hear take 1 + EQ in the DAW, since the point of this exercise was to get it sounding as good "at the source" as it sounded with post-processing)

To continue the experiment, even though I could hear a difference, I wanted to *see* the difference to better understand what was happening. I slapped a spectrum analyzer on the master fader and grabbed this screenshot:

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(click there -> http://eastofcleveland.com/i/spectrumAnalyzer.jpg <-for the full version)

The left side of the spectrum meter covered "take 1", the right "take 2". You can see the concentration of lower frequencies on the left, and see more evenness in the spread on the right. Sure, we've all heard that you shouldn't "mix with your eyes", but it is interesting to see the effect of tweaking EQ settings to "spread out" the frequencies. even better that it was EQ on the amp.

btw, here are the guitar/amp settings from the two takes (Dean Vendetta - cheapo guitar, bridge humbucker, tone/vol 100%; Vox AD30VT, early-gen modeling amp, in "UK 70's" model, with upgraded speaker (10" Eminence Ragin Cajun); into an SM57 1-1.5" from grille, on-axis, a little inside the cone/dustcap seam):

take 1
brighter tone (right): gain=35-40%, vol=100%, treble=70-80%, mid=70-75%, bass=15%
darker tone (left): gain=70%+, vol=100, treble=15, mid=25, bass=10-ish

take 2
brighter tone (right): gain=35-40%, vol=100%, treble=80%?, mid=35-40, bass=15
darker tone (left): gain=70%+, vol=100, treble=20, mid=20, bass=5

Tn general, and keeping the gain/vol about the same, the "improvement" I made was to thin out the mids and lows, and push up the highs...which means, given the same relative volume, you'll hear more of the higher frequencies and less of the lower ones. That's exactly what you see in the spectrum analyzer. It makes sense, though; that mic position is relatively close, so the lows are probably boosted by proximity effect, and even though I didn't hear it as being "woofy" in the room when I first started, once I started toggling between the Green Day track, take 1 raw track, and take 1 + post-processing EQ, I knew exactly what was "wrong" with the amp settings in the first take.

Anyway, long-winded and maybe explained in a confusing way, but there it is.
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Re: The Tone Thread

Post by rayc »

Ah, listening and making it happen at the amp - that's the way - I'm a long way from getting to the way properly m'self, but well done.
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Re: The Tone Thread

Post by Greg_L »

SweetDan wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:00 pm Here's a thing I just did: in attempting to make a sound like the chorus from "In The End" on Dookie by Green Day, I thought I'd take a methodical approach to obtaining similar tones:
I appreciate what you're doing, but you missed one very simple thing - it just needs more gain. Your EQ'd bits do sound better, but it's just lacking a bit more crunch to get into Dookie territory.
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Re: The Tone Thread

Post by Minerman »

Greg_L wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:59 pm
SweetDan wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:00 pm Here's a thing I just did: in attempting to make a sound like the chorus from "In The End" on Dookie by Green Day, I thought I'd take a methodical approach to obtaining similar tones:
I appreciate what you're doing, but you missed one very simple thing - it just needs more gain. Your EQ'd bits do sound better, but it's just lacking a bit more crunch to get into Dookie territory.
+1 ... it's pretty close now dude, & a tad more gain will make it even closer...
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Re: The Tone Thread

Post by SweetDan »

Minerman wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:17 am
Greg_L wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:59 pm I appreciate what you're doing, but you missed one very simple thing - it just needs more gain. Your EQ'd bits do sound better, but it's just lacking a bit more crunch to get into Dookie territory.
+1 ... it's pretty close now dude, & a tad more gain will make it even closer...
Like this? http://eastofcleveland.com/m/moarGeetar ... rGainz.mp3 (warning! extremely sloppy double-tracking ahead...)

(edit: notes on settings)
same mic/amp/guitar settings as "take 2", but with only the gain boosted
brighter tone (right): gain=35-40% 65-70%, vol=100%, treble=80%?, mid=35-40, bass=15
darker tone (left): gain=70%+ 100%, vol=100, treble=20, mid=20, bass=5
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Re: The Tone Thread

Post by Minerman »

SweetDan wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:17 am
Minerman wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:17 am
+1 ... it's pretty close now dude, & a tad more gain will make it even closer...
Like this?
Comparing your last 2 clips I'll say it's a little better, but listening to "When I Come Around", the intro guitar seems a little dirtier than what you have here to me...Of course in a mix it might be closer than what I think, just my :twocents:
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Re: The Tone Thread

Post by WhiskeyJack »

I am not sure if i have posted about the 2x12 in here or not or if it was in the DIY thread but i'll put it here it makes sense.

I had an hour to tinker some more last night with that 2x12 and happened upon something i didn't notice before. The two speakers are angled in on each other. Which sort of makes sense as to why i was getting such a shit recorded tone with them. I couldn't for the life of me figure out why there was so much air in the mic position i chose. Makes total sense why i was getting that off axis sound. I tried ot eyeball an "on axis position and and it really brought things back to life.

I am working from home this week so today at "lunch time" i will run down stairs and grab you all some tones. nothing fancy. some 30 second clips of everything. kind of stoked actually.

the stuff i got last night seemed to be really clippy though using a 40W traynor. not sure if that is the cab or what but i'll figure it out.
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Re: The Tone Thread

Post by Greg_L »

Do it!
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Re: The Tone Thread

Post by Greg_L »

SweetDan wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:17 am

Like this? http://eastofcleveland.com/m/moarGeetar ... rGainz.mp3 (warning! extremely sloppy double-tracking ahead...)

(edit: notes on settings)
same mic/amp/guitar settings as "take 2", but with only the gain boosted
brighter tone (right): gain=35-40% 65-70%, vol=100%, treble=80%?, mid=35-40, bass=15
darker tone (left): gain=70%+ 100%, vol=100, treble=20, mid=20, bass=5
Damn sorry I missed this!

I think that's probably closer. Maybe a little fizzy but you need to try it in a mix.
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Re: The Tone Thread

Post by Greg_L »

Okay fuckos, here's the first run-through with the mega-bastard 1987/2204 Plexi 800. If you've followed along with this latest round of mods starting HERE you'll see wtf I'm talking about.

I don't know what to call it. If yall can think of a name for it, I'm open to suggestions. It's a Plexi 1987 Lead and a JCM 800 2204 merged into one.

So anyway, one thing I've noticed already is that the two volumes act differently. It's got a traditional master volume (pre phase inverter) and a PPIMV (post phase inverter). The Plexi half of the amp works better with the traditional master vol cranked and the PPIMV used to tame volume. The 800 half works best with the PPIMV cranked and the traditional master volume controlling volume. So I just kind of went for a compromise between the two and left it the same for both halves. This is my first loud test of the thing, so familiarity and further setting refinements will come in due time. But I must say I'm already more than pleased with the total outcome, and with myself! This thing is killer in person.

So here's a quicky I just did just fucking around. Three sections each, Plexi then pull the pot to engage JCM 800 mode. You can tell when it happens.
First section - Plexi ch vol 4 - JCM 800 gain 4
Second section - Plexi ch vol 7 - JCM 800 gain 7
Third section - Plexi ch vol 10 - JCM 800 gain 10

Gibson Les Paul Custom - Bare Knuckles Riff Raff bridge p/u
Marshall 1987/2204
Presence - 5
Bass - 6
Mid - 6
Treb - 6
Master vol - 7
PPIMV - 10
Marshall 1960B 4x12 - Celestion G12-65
Senn MD421 on axis, on grill, dustcap/cone + Shure SM57 on axis, on grill, halfway to edge
Both mics equal blend
No EQ or FX in DAW
2204 65 421+57.mp3
Lemme know what you think. :guru:
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Re: The Tone Thread

Post by Minerman »

Greg_L wrote: ↑Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:16 pm So here's a quicky I just did just fucking around. Three sections each, Plexi then pull the pot to engage JCM 800 mode. You can tell when it happens.
First section - Plexi ch vol 4 - JCM 800 gain 4
Second section - Plexi ch vol 7 - JCM 800 gain 7
Third section - Plexi ch vol 10 - JCM 800 gain 10

Gibson Les Paul Custom - Bare Knuckles Riff Raff bridge p/u
Marshall 1987/2204
Presence - 5
Bass - 6
Mid - 6
Treb - 6
Master vol - 7
PPIMV - 10
Marshall 1960B 4x12 - Celestion G12-65
Senn MD421 on axis, on grill, dustcap/cone + Shure SM57 on axis, on grill, halfway to edge
Both mics equal blend
No EQ or FX in DAW

Lemme know what you think. :guru:
Greg's Bastard JCM 1987...Greg's Bastard SLP 800??? :biggrin:

Dunno what you're gonna call it, but I like it dude, I think it sounds pretty good in this clip, especially the gained-up parts...

I had an idea about the 2x12 cabs a day or two ago...I'd been looking at those 2061 style cabs, & Sour Mash has 'em for like $350 each, shipped...The dimensions are like 26" x 27" x 12", which is almost as big as the 4x12's I have...So those cheap Valvestate & MG 4x12's are basically the same size, but I could buy 2 of 'em used for abour $350...I could probably replace the speaker baffles in those cabs to house 2 speakers instead of 4 pretty easily...I'm sure they're made of mdf, but I don't think it'd really matter for my use...What say ye Tonetards???
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Re: The Tone Thread

Post by Greg_L »

Minerman wrote: ↑Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:16 pm
Greg's Bastard JCM 1987...Greg's Bastard SLP 800??? :biggrin:

Dunno what you're gonna call it, but I like it dude, I think it sounds pretty good in this clip, especially the gained-up parts...
Ha JCM 1987 seems like a good name. Simple, effective, I like it. Thanks. I'll have some more clips soon as I re-learn this thing.
I had an idea about the 2x12 cabs a day or two ago...I'd been looking at those 2061 style cabs, & Sour Mash has 'em for like $350 each, shipped...The dimensions are like 26" x 27" x 12", which is almost as big as the 4x12's I have...So those cheap Valvestate & MG 4x12's are basically the same size, but I could buy 2 of 'em used for abour $350...I could probably replace the speaker baffles in those cabs to house 2 speakers instead of 4 pretty easily...I'm sure they're made of mdf, but I don't think it'd really matter for my use...What say ye Tonetards???
That seems like a pretty good idea to me if you can find those cabs for cheap. :coolstorybro:
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Re: The Tone Thread

Post by Minerman »

Greg_L wrote: ↑Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:52 pm Ha JCM 1987 seems like a good name. Simple, effective, I like it. Thanks. I'll have some more clips soon as I re-learn this thing.
Lol...I think it's fuckin' cool you can go from one to the other with the flick of a switch, & the best part is both sides sound good...Fuckin' epic dude...Now you need to figure out how to make it work with a footswitch, & start offering to mod people's amps like the guy at the Marshall forum...
Greg_L wrote: ↑Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:52 pmThat seems like a pretty good idea to me if you can find those cabs for cheap. :coolstorybro:
There are all kinds of 'em on GC used site, most are around $150-ish, but I'd have to pick a couple out that aren't beat to hell...There have even been a few pop up on the local CL from time to time...A sheet of plywood for the baffle would only be about $40-50...
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Re: The Tone Thread

Post by Greg_L »

Minerman wrote: ↑Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:22 pm
Lol...I think it's fuckin' cool you can go from one to the other with the flick of a switch, & the best part is both sides sound good...Fuckin' epic dude...Now you need to figure out how to make it work with a footswitch, & start offering to mod people's amps like the guy at the Marshall forum...
Lol. No. I'm not hacking up anyone's amps. But...you know my buddy Shawn? He just fucking bought a 100w Plexi reissue that's been converted to a Metro turret board with Mercury transformers for fucking 800 bucks! 800! Fuck! Fuuuuuuck I wish I had found that first. :headwall:

Anyway, I'll see it tomorrow. He wants me to reinstall the fx loop. I guess I could do that. I'm bringing the bastard JCM 1987 over there too, so if he likes the JCM mod he might want it on that Plexi. They're the same amp.
Greg_L wrote: ↑Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:52 pm There are all kinds of 'em on GC used site, most are around $150-ish, but I'd have to pick a couple out that aren't beat to hell...There have even been a few pop up on the local CL from time to time...A sheet of plywood for the baffle would only be about $40-50...
Do it. That'd probably be a bad ass 2x12! Are you giving up on the iso box?
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Re: The Tone Thread

Post by Minerman »

Greg_L wrote: ↑Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:33 pm Lol. No. I'm not hacking up anyone's amps. But...you know my buddy Shawn? He just fucking bought a 100w Plexi reissue that's been converted to a Metro turret board with Mercury transformers for fucking 800 bucks! 800! Fuck! Fuuuuuuck I wish I had found that first. :headwall:

Anyway, I'll see it tomorrow. He wants me to reinstall the fx loop. I guess I could do that. I'm bringing the bastard JCM 1987 over there too, so if he likes the JCM mod he might want it on that Plexi. They're the same amp.
Wow man, seems like you Texas guys find good deals on all kinds of shit man...I truly live at the ass-end of the whole world...

Keep us updated dude...
Greg_L wrote: ↑Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:52 pm Do it. That'd probably be a bad ass 2x12! Are you giving up on the iso box?
I'm not really giving up on the ISO cab, but I really don't think the end result is as good as just a cab pushed with a little volume dude...The low-end loss is really a pisser to be honest, I know it really just comes down to dialing the amp & mic in a little differently, but it just feels totally alien to me, when I know how to fix that in an instant with a regular cab/mic...

I'm still leaning toward the tones I got with the Chupa, that were actually recorded at fairly low-volume levels...I know that amp was the key to those tones I loved so much, but I'm still shooting for similar tones with what I have...Just like I've mentioned 100 times, everything's a trade-off/compromise, & when you compromise on one thing, something else will suffer because of it...I'm still finding "the spot" where it's all acceptable for me dude...I've finally realized the tone-chase is a never-ending quest, it just gets better/worse depending on my expectations.... :biggrin:
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Re: The Tone Thread

Post by Greg_L »

Minerman wrote: ↑Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:39 pm
Wow man, seems like you Texas guys find good deals on all kinds of shit man...I truly live at the ass-end of the whole world...

Keep us updated dude...
This is a big city dude. And Austin and Dallas are just a few hours away. Lots of music here and lots of people playing music. That means lots of gear for sale. My man Shawn is CONSTANTLY patrolling ebay and/or Craigslist. Just last weekend at our gig he had a dude come to the show so they could make a guitar trade deal. Shawn has a BB King Lucille in real nice shape that has was gonna trade for a 70s LP Custom. The Lucille is probably about a $3k guitar. The guy also brought a late 90s LP Classic. The guy said it was a 70s Custom, but it was actually an 83 and pretty beat. The Classic was pretty rough too. Not a good trade so Shawn passed. I told him to offer the Lucille for both guitars but the guy passed on that. So no deal. But that kind of shit happens all the time. I usually stumble on to my deals out of dumb luck or just chance, but Shawn and Chris are always on the lookout. Any time I go to my shredder buddy Chris's apartment his computer browser is on Reverb.com. Not porn, not news, not youtube, just used gear listings. Every single time. He's always looking for something.
I'm not really giving up on the ISO cab, but I really don't think the end result is as good as just a cab pushed with a little volume dude...The low-end loss is really a pisser to be honest, I know it really just comes down to dialing the amp & mic in a little differently, but it just feels totally alien to me, when I know how to fix that in an instant with a regular cab/mic...

I'm still leaning toward the tones I got with the Chupa, that were actually recorded at fairly low-volume levels...I know that amp was the key to those tones I loved so much, but I'm still shooting for similar tones with what I have...Just like I've mentioned 100 times, everything's a trade-off/compromise, & when you compromise on one thing, something else will suffer because of it...I'm still finding "the spot" where it's all acceptable for me dude...I've finally realized the tone-chase is a never-ending quest, it just gets better/worse depending on my expectations.... :biggrin:
Man, really, you need to get another Chupa before you do anything else. :coolstorybro:
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Re: The Tone Thread

Post by rayc »

The Mutant
EXCELLENT.
You've the best of all worlds without having a whiff of modern metal about it.
Well done.
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Re: The Tone Thread

Post by JD01 »

Greg_L wrote: ↑Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:16 pm Okay fuckos, here's the first run-through with the mega-bastard 1987/2204 Plexi 800. If you've followed along with this latest round of mods starting HERE you'll see wtf I'm talking about.
JCMutant?
Sounds great, Greg! You must be well happy with that.
The 1st run through might be a little mild for me.
The 2nd and 3rd are both brilliant!
The 4th and 5th sound great too, pretty high gain, but they're still really useable good tones, they've got a bit of an early Metallica thing!
The 6th sounds good and I bet its fun to play but it seems like its starting to flub out a bit.
That last one might sound really good with a boost in front to tighten up the bottom - it would be proper metal then though!
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