The Tone Thread

[rayc]

Minerman - Ceriatone in a PEDAL...
[BBvideo=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsJvUyQKTmw[/BBvideo]

[Greg_L]

Thanks Greg,
It's clear the 1st clip is more an demo of the amp than the guitar.
This clip has more guitar.
The amp volume is set at 2 out of 10.
The pick up sequence is bridge, both then neck.
The quieter sections are the guitar vol at about 7 and the louder at 10.
I strummed then picked open chords and later played F shaped chords or variations thereof.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/q6sdz5srayyne ... 2.mp3?dl=0
Oh, the mic is about 6cm from the cone not 20.
Yep there's a tuning problem - downstairs is really cold at the moment and my hand clamped a bit too much over the medium jumbo frets as well as having a dud tuner at present.

To me, some of that sounds pretty cool, and some of it is a little harsh. I hear usable and less-usable stuff all throughout that clip. I personally would not blame the guitar. I think it's probably that little amp. But I also hear your strumming/chording style which to me is unmistakable. I think I could pick your guitar playing out of a line up. All off that is to say that you sound like you no matter what you do. That's a good thing in my book.

Anyway, that amp seems to break up really easily. It's light break-up is great to me. Sounds fine. A little crunchy, garagey, raw, sounds cool. It's heavier break up is less pleasing. Try the EQ in front. Shelf off some highs, shelf off some lows, see if you can get the brittle break up out of it a little. And if you really wanna go crazy, maybe swap out the preamp tube for a lower gain tube.
http://www.thetubestore.com/Resources/G ... ain-Factor

[rayc]

And if you really wanna go crazy, maybe swap out the preamp tube for a lower gain tube.
http://www.thetubestore.com/Resources/G ... ain-Factor

Greg,
I say DOH! That's something I ought to have thought of. GREAT idea. I'll look into it.
I will try the EQ option in the short term though as I have those "tools" at hand.

[JD01]

Thanks Greg,
It's clear the 1st clip is more an demo of the amp than the guitar.
This clip has more guitar.
The amp volume is set at 2 out of 10.
The pick up sequence is bridge, both then neck.
The quieter sections are the guitar vol at about 7 and the louder at 10.
I strummed then picked open chords and later played F shaped chords or variations thereof.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/q6sdz5srayyne ... 2.mp3?dl=0
Oh, the mic is about 6cm from the cone not 20.
Yep there's a tuning problem - downstairs is really cold at the moment and my hand clamped a bit too much over the medium jumbo frets as well as having a dud tuner at present.

As it goes on and gets louder it also gets less distinct and more mushy, clips 1 and 2 are OK, as is clip 4. Clips 3, 5 and 6 are too dark and indistinct to me. I think clip 4 would need a bit of work before you'd want to use it too much though.

I think it sounds pretty good clean and the first 6 are all totally usable, the 7th - 9th clean clips are potentially alright but I think you'd want to do a bit of surgery on them before using them in a mix.

[Greg_L]

Greg,
I say DOH! That's something I ought to have thought of. GREAT idea. I'll look into it.
I will try the EQ option in the short term though as I have those "tools" at hand.

Yeah! I don't know the tube situation down under, but preamp tubes are pretty cheap. You could probably buy a handful of them and swap em in and out. Don't go for some NOS cork sniffer shit. Regular production tubes are fine. JJ, Tung-Sol, Electro-Harmonix, Sovtek, Shuguang...all about the same price and work well.

I'm not really that into tube rolling in bigger amps. I know some people swear it makes a huge difference, but I'm not one of those people. I'll take any tube that works properly and is proper for the amp and I'll sound the same no matter what.

But on your little amp that has just one preamp tube and everything happens there, it'll make a difference....especially going down in gain. Should make a huge difference. Now whether it's good or bad is yet to be seen.

[rayc]

I've looked into the tubes in the amp - there's just one EL84 power tube and a 12AX7 preamp tube. There are lower power versions of the EL - a JJ EL844 for example and it's said to be lower power but also less harsh. I'm now researching the preamp tube substitution - there's much more "opinion' out there on the preamp tube but from folk I don't know so is there any knowledge or info in our little world? If Y please chime in.
yeah, the tubes are dead cheap - a loower gain power one as noted above is only US$16.

[Greg_L]

I've looked into the tubes in the amp - there's just one EL84 power tube and a 12AX7 preamp tube. There are lower power versions of the EL - a JJ EL844 for example and it's said to be lower power but also less harsh. I'm now researching the preamp tube substitution - there's much more "opinion' out there on the preamp tube but from folk I don't know so is there any knowledge or info in our little world? If Y please chime in.

Don't mess with the power tube. The preamp tube is what's creating the gain. You have a 12AX7 which is pretty typical and it's a high gain tube. Not high gain like metal high gain, just in tube terms it's got a high amplification factor. It's got two sets of triodes, first half is the first gain stage, second half gains the first half up even more. That's usually how they work. Using a lower gain tube will probably tame the gain so "2" on the dial won't be breaking up so easily, and going further won't turn to mush so quickly. There are many other factors in a preamp circuit, but the tube is the easiest to deal with. Try a 12AT7 or a 12AU7. Those are both much lower gain than a 12AX7.

[rayc]

Greg,
I did some searching for the tubes. CHEAP as dirt in the US but $24 added for postage. Ebay was EVIL incarnate for price & postage. I've ordered a couple of JJs locally - a 12AT7 and a 5751 as the AU7 wasn't in stock. The AT7 is 60% of the current tube and the 5751 is 70% so that's an interesting starting point. I'll follow with the AU7 when it's locally in stock if things are still too blah.
thanks VERY much.

[Greg_L]

Greg,
I did some searching for the tubes. CHEAP as dirt in the US but $24 added for postage. Ebay was EVIL incarnate for price & postage. I've ordered a couple of JJs locally - a 12AT7 and a 5751 as the AU7 wasn't in stock. The AT7 is 60% of the current tube and the 5751 is 70% so that's an interesting starting point. I'll follow with the AU7 when it's locally in stock if things are still too blah.
thanks VERY much.

Sounds good. I think one of those should probably do the trick. That's what I'd do to tame an amp. I guess we'll see if it works!

[rayc]

For the sake of the guitar's tone profile here's a run through of the guitar pickups & vol through my Marshall Superbass MkII into a cheap Marshall 4 x 12.
There's PLENTY of head room and clarity in that thing.
The vol was set at 4 with all knobs in the 12 o'clock position.
For the last run through I turned it up to 6.
Everything is Bridge, then both, then neck at about 60% guitar vol. Followed by the same at 100% guitar volume.
Power chords, Open chords, picked chords, scales and, pen-ultimately, F shaped chords ending with power chords in the loud section.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/bev8djrup3uyl ... o.mp3?dl=0

[Greg_L]

For the sake of the guitar's tone profile here's a run through of the guitar pickups & vol through my Marshall Superbass MkII into a cheap Marshall 4 x 12.
There's PLENTY of head room and clarity in that thing.
The vol was set at 4 with all knobs in the 12 o'clock position.
For the last run through I turned it up to 6.
Everything is Bridge, then both, then neck at about 60% guitar vol. Followed by the same at 100% guitar volume.
Power chords, Open chords, picked chords, scales and, pen-ultimately, F shaped chords ending with power chords in the loud section.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/bev8djrup3uyl ... o.mp3?dl=0

That sounds great to me Ray. Very clean. That amp simply refuses to break up! Good sound though.

Since we were talking about tubes...check and see what the preamp tubes are in your Superbass. I've always thought it was odd that your Superbass just doesn't break up at all. I never thought of the tubes though. Maybe you've got some low gain tubes in there.

[Greg_L]

Minerman - Ceriatone in a PEDAL...
[BBvideo=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsJvUyQKTmw[/BBvideo]

Damn how'd I miss this?

Sounds pretty good. I don't quite understand all the Klon hype, but it sounds fine nonetheless. Too damn big though! What's with pedals all being gigantic, or tiny now? Fuck. Just make them regular Boss sized and call it a day.

[rayc]

That sounds great to me Ray. Very clean. That amp simply refuses to break up! Good sound though.
Since we were talking about tubes...check and see what the preamp tubes are in your Superbass. I've always thought it was odd that your Superbass just doesn't break up at all. I never thought of the tubes though. Maybe you've got some low gain tubes in there.

That's an interesting perspective. I had a tube or tubes replaced in about 89 when the amp died. The fellow who did the repair was an electronic technician for the Federal govt Broadcaster and had access to a huge store of old NOS. I don't know what he put in the thing. I'll crack it open and have a squiz. That mat be the answer - even if it's not I can document what is in there.
When I had it repaired a few years back it was because it kept blowing fuses when hooked up to an attenuator so i doubt he did anything tube wise.

[rayc]

As it goes on and gets louder it also gets less distinct and more mushy, clips 1 and 2 are OK, as is clip 4. Clips 3, 5 and 6 are too dark and indistinct to me. I think clip 4 would need a bit of work before you'd want to use it too much though.

I think it sounds pretty good clean and the first 6 are all totally usable, the 7th - 9th clean clips are potentially alright but I think you'd want to do a bit of surgery on them before using them in a mix.

Thanks for the detailed response James.
I'll see how the tube/valve swap goes and post some more.

[Greg_L]

Here's some clips featuring Muttley's Mutt90 pickups.

The subjects:
Gibson SG Special - Mutt90 P90 8.4k in the bridge, CTS 500k Audio vol/tone pots, .022uf tone cap.
Chibson LPJr - Mutt90 Dogear P90 7.7k pickup, CTS 500k Audio vol/tone pots, .022uf tone cap.

Marshall 1987x 50w Plexi reissue
Presence - 0
Bass - 10
Mid - 10
Treb - 10
Volume 1 - 10
Bright channel high input
Marshall 1960B 4x12 - Celestion G12H30
Shure SM 57 on axis, on grill, center speaker. Shure SM57 30 deg off axis, on grill, right next to center mic.
50/50 mic blend
No EQ or FX in DAW

So what I did here is some mindless directionless chords and minimal noodling rolling through the volume and tone controls on the guitars. Each clip is pretty much the same. Nothing on the amp, cab, or mics changed. Just different guitars. The Chibson Jr does have slightly newer strings than the SG.

Chibson Les Paul Jr:

LPJr Mutt90 1987x G12H30 57-57.mp3

Gibson SG Special:

SG Mutt90 1987x G12H30 57-57.mp3

See what you think.

[rayc]

Chibson - well, I'll have it if you don't like it. A full range of stuff.
Gibson - well, I'll have it if you don't like it. More feedback - from the hotter PU?
My assessment: Muttley makes great pickups.
Oh, sounds like you should develop that chord progression into your own BOC track.

[Greg_L]

Chibson - well, I'll have it if you don't like it. A full range of stuff.
Gibson - well, I'll have it if you don't like it. More feedback - from the hotter PU?
My assessment: Muttley makes great pickups.
Oh, sounds like you should develop that chord progression into your own BOC track.

Yeah Mutt's pickups are great. And I've really developed an appreciation for being able to get a huge range of sounds from simply twiddling the guitars controls. I mean that amp was cranked and with Mutt's Pups and the right pots, I could get a pretty crystal clear clean from an amp set to kill. Great, responsive, articulate pickups.

[Minerman]

Wow man, I'm impressed with the $200 Chibson, there are subtle differences, but in all reality, there are subtle differences between every guitar...The biggest difference I hear is the SG has a bit more high end/clarity, & a little more sustain, but it's nothing to worry about IMO at all, ever, especially for a $200 knock off...

Looking at the amp settings you had that baby screamin'...

I might be changing my mind on getting new amp, I might buy a fuckin' Chibson...

Sounds good Greg...

[Greg_L]

Wow man, I'm impressed with the $200 Chibson, there are subtle differences, but in all reality, there are subtle differences between every guitar...The biggest difference I hear is the SG has a bit more high end/clarity, & a little more sustain, but it's nothing to worry about IMO at all, ever, especially for a $200 knock off...

Looking at the amp settings you had that baby screamin'...

I might be changing my mind on getting new amp, I might buy a fuckin' Chibson...

Sounds good Greg...

Haha thanks. If you go the Chibson route, be prepared to change just about everything. Pots, pickups, maybe all of the hardware, tuners, just about everything that isn't wood.


Ray - The difference in output is subtle but noticeable. I think the SG's ever so slightly hotter Mutt90 has a little more punch to it.

[Minerman]

Haha thanks. If you go the Chibson route, be prepared to change just about everything. Pots, pickups, maybe all of the hardware, tuners, just about everything that isn't wood.

Yeah, I pretty much knew that, I might do that with a tele, since it's about the only kind of guitar I don't really have, my strats are close, but...There are 4 guitars I used to own, but sold (gave 'em away really) when I was a strung-out, dope fiend junkie that I'd like to have back...I'd probably never find those actual guitars again, but I'd settle for replacements...

One of 'em was a USA made Tele Plus II which I hocked, a Kramer Nightswan (yes the one with the lightning bolt graphics), a Jackson PS4, but one I really wish I still had was an early 70's SG 1 which my lovely first ex-wife sold for me...
None of 'em are anything special really, just sentimental, especially the SG 1, it was my first electric my parents bought for my Christmas present when I was 13...

It was exactly like this, minus the zebra skin background:

SG-Jr.jpg

I just had a revelation with my e-kit too, while attempting to play along with some youtube videos...Yeah, the software I have sounds pretty good, & my e-kit is killer (to me), but....it ain't nowhere near the real thing as far as dynamics/subtlety/realism, especially the cymbals & hi-hats...So, if/when I ever get outta this place into another, a real kit & mics are on my agenda...