Wiring Issue

New Guitar Day? Obsessed with tone? 10 on the volume dial not enough? Celestion vs. Electrovoice? Cum in, feel the noize.
User avatar
Greg_L
Posts: 20629
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:07 pm
Location: Where the knuckle meets the poophole

Re: Wiring Issue

Post by Greg_L »

Couple other things....I said push/pull, but you could also use push/push or even toggles. I'd advise against toggles. Push/pull or push/push pots would be better for splitting the pickups.

It probably also wouldn't hurt to get it set up properly....maybe even get a new nut made for it. There's no reason that guitar can't be a good player...or at least stay in tune....unless it's a hopeless piece of shit.
Rebel Yell
User avatar
muttley
Posts: 6790
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 6:33 am
Location: right here right now..
Contact:

Re: Wiring Issue

Post by muttley »

First lesson in guitar circuits is to always ignore the colour of the wires in there. Second lesson is that is a hell of a lot simpler than it looks.

As gerg says you can split those coils on a KA humbucker. Wiring instructions should be on that link I posted up for KA pickups.

Get your soldering technique up to scratch before you get too involved. The likely cause of the problems you have now is probably poor soldering rather than dodgy parts. Pots dont usually fail like you describe. They get noisey and then crackly and then dead. The most common reason for a pot to fail is solder getting in there... There are lots of useful you tube links to help bone up on the subject.
User avatar
WhiskeyJack
Site Admin
Posts: 11366
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:48 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Wiring Issue

Post by WhiskeyJack »

Ok very cool.

I am going to do a little more research on my own and maybe go have some beer with Hatfield Creek this week and maybe come up with something fun to do with this. I sort of wanted to spruce up my Epiphone with maybe new pickups and push pull taps but maybe seeing as this thing is down and out and needing some surgery this might be the one that gets to get Frankenstein first.

Getting back to these capictors now. I seem to recall someone telling me years ago when i got my Epiphone that i could do wonders for the way it sounds by adding in some bumblebee thing in the wiring of it. I am guessing it is these things?

Image

What is the difference between those, and the green things in this Sparrow? Do they actually really doing anything? Would they more apply to how it shapes a clean guitar tone (clean i rarely use) Or is it worth also digging more into?
:happytrees:
User avatar
Greg_L
Posts: 20629
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:07 pm
Location: Where the knuckle meets the poophole

Re: Wiring Issue

Post by Greg_L »

WhiskeyJack wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:55 pm Ok very cool.

I am going to do a little more research on my own and maybe go have some beer with Hatfield Creek this week and maybe come up with something fun to do with this. I sort of wanted to spruce up my Epiphone with maybe new pickups and push pull taps but maybe seeing as this thing is down and out and needing some surgery this might be the one that gets to get Frankenstein first.

Getting back to these capictors now. I seem to recall someone telling me years ago when i got my Epiphone that i could do wonders for the way it sounds by adding in some bumblebee thing in the wiring of it. I am guessing it is these things?

Image

What is the difference between those, and the green things in this Sparrow? Do they actually really doing anything? Would they more apply to how it shapes a clean guitar tone (clean i rarely use) Or is it worth also digging more into?
The tone caps pretty much have no effect unless you actually use the tone knobs. If you always play with your tone knob fully on 10, then it matters none. The tone pot and cap act as a low pass filter. You roll off the tone knob, the guitar tone gets darker. Pretty simple. How much darker and how fast depends on the pot and cap value. A smaller value cap will have less effect and get less dark. The type of cap doesn't really matter. You can put expensive Bumblebees in there or the cheapest ceramic disk cap you can find, it will not matter. The value matters, and again, it doesn't matter if you don't use the tone knobs. For a typical Les Paul wiring setup, I think a .022uf cap is the standard value.
Rebel Yell
User avatar
Lt. Bob
Posts: 6558
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:02 pm

Re: Wiring Issue

Post by Lt. Bob »

yeah, as greg says, the caps do nothing unless you use the tone pots ..... the green things are caps of a different type.
So they do nothing either unless you use the tone pots.
User avatar
WhiskeyJack
Site Admin
Posts: 11366
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:48 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Wiring Issue

Post by WhiskeyJack »

Ok, So, i have done a little research and stuff and if i am understanding this correctly, if i am to replace these pots in this thing i should try to have linear taper tone pots, audio taper volume pots, and rewire it as greg says in a much more simple way. I am on board with a push pull or maybe even a push / push pot if possible. The whole upside down, knobs under my forearm thing may be problematic but i'll try and make do.

If that was how i was to do it, do all the pots need to push pull or push push ? or just one for each p/up?

Also not sure if affects what i am trying to do but i think greg mentioned the vintage style wiring job. I should be able to attempt that with this rig hey?

I kind of want to place an order with stewmac this payday so your help is all appreciated.
:happytrees:
User avatar
WhiskeyJack
Site Admin
Posts: 11366
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:48 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Wiring Issue

Post by WhiskeyJack »

I am guessing not all pots are universal hey? should i be measuring threads, heights and widths of shafts too?
:happytrees:
User avatar
Greg_L
Posts: 20629
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:07 pm
Location: Where the knuckle meets the poophole

Re: Wiring Issue

Post by Greg_L »

I'm personally a big fan of audio taper pots. Sometimes they're called "log" or "logarithmic". I think they roll off better, smoother, you don't have to go as far with the rolling down to get results.
500k for P-90s or humbuckers.
The 50s wiring is overkill but it works really well for juggling volume rolloffs and using the tone controls. And it's easy as shit to do.
The push/pull vs push/push is strictly up to you.
Rebel Yell
User avatar
muttley
Posts: 6790
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 6:33 am
Location: right here right now..
Contact:

Re: Wiring Issue

Post by muttley »

Yes. for best results you need to replace the pots with ones that match the shaft length you have. That way you wont have to bush or route the cavity. Push/Push are preferred if you have knobs that are push fit. Knobs on Push/pull tend to work loose after a while. StewMac are expensive and not necessarily better.

As far as whether you want push pull on all pots depends entirely on what switching you may want going forward. If you dont need them now there is no harm in fitting them as they will be there if you do need them in the future and the cost is only a few pence more... Vintage wiring describes how they are connected together and not the pots themselves so focus your research on what values you want and the effect it may have on your tone rather than the wiring diagram itself for now. How you solder it all up is the end game..
User avatar
WhiskeyJack
Site Admin
Posts: 11366
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:48 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Wiring Issue

Post by WhiskeyJack »

Cheers guys, that's some sound food for thought.

Greg, i was under the impression the linear was the smoother of the roll off options. Maybe i read the information wrong? :confused: Maybe i just need to stfu and try both and see what i like best.

Mutt i only chose stewmac because i have some other stuff for the tele build i want to pick up as well. Save on shipping and such. I am wide open to proprietors suggestions though.
:happytrees:
User avatar
Greg_L
Posts: 20629
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:07 pm
Location: Where the knuckle meets the poophole

Re: Wiring Issue

Post by Greg_L »

WhiskeyJack wrote: Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:46 pm

Greg, i was under the impression the linear was the smoother of the roll off options. Maybe i read the information wrong? :confused: Maybe i just need to stfu and try both and see what i like best.
Linear pots are more....linear. The taper is consistent and predictable. But you also have to travel much farther to get where you wanna go. Say like with a linear pot you have to turn down to 3 to clean up a pickup. With an audio pot you might only need to turn down to 7 to get the same result. The audio taper pot ramps off faster then smooths out as you go down. The roll off from full 10 to 5 is pretty dramatic, from 5 on down is pretty mild. A linear pot has the same rate of decrease across the spectrum. There may be little to no audible difference between 10 and 6. That's not necessarily a good thing if you have to turn way way down just to knock the edge off a pickup a little. It's personal taste but I find audio pots more user friendly.
Rebel Yell
User avatar
Greg_L
Posts: 20629
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:07 pm
Location: Where the knuckle meets the poophole

Re: Wiring Issue

Post by Greg_L »

Here's a graph....ignore the reverse log taper. Just look at the linear vs log/audio taper.

Image
Rebel Yell
User avatar
muttley
Posts: 6790
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 6:33 am
Location: right here right now..
Contact:

Re: Wiring Issue

Post by muttley »

WhiskeyJack wrote: Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:46 pm Cheers guys, that's some sound food for thought.

Greg, i was under the impression the linear was the smoother of the roll off options. Maybe i read the information wrong? :confused: Maybe i just need to stfu and try both and see what i like best.

Mutt i only chose stewmac because i have some other stuff for the tele build i want to pick up as well. Save on shipping and such. I am wide open to proprietors suggestions though.
I'm not knocking StewMac, they do some decent stuff but I would never buy pots or wiring stuff off them. If you google or search amazon or ebay, or look into All Parts or similar most of the pots you find there would be similar quality as the StewMac ones. I'm not where you are so cant advise on where to go. Others from your neck of the woods may be able to advise. I was just giving you a heads up that all. What other stuff are you after for you tele? I would only use StewMac for tools generally and a few other build specific stuff...Gerg is right about the taper..
User avatar
WhiskeyJack
Site Admin
Posts: 11366
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:48 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Wiring Issue

Post by WhiskeyJack »

Greg_L wrote: Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:55 pm
WhiskeyJack wrote: Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:46 pm

Greg, i was under the impression the linear was the smoother of the roll off options. Maybe i read the information wrong? :confused: Maybe i just need to stfu and try both and see what i like best.
Linear pots are more....linear. The taper is consistent and predictable. But you also have to travel much farther to get where you wanna go. Say like with a linear pot you have to turn down to 3 to clean up a pickup. With an audio pot you might only need to turn down to 7 to get the same result. The audio taper pot ramps off faster then smooths out as you go down. The roll off from full 10 to 5 is pretty dramatic, from 5 on down is pretty mild. A linear pot has the same rate of decrease across the spectrum. There may be little to no audible difference between 10 and 6. That's not necessarily a good thing if you have to turn way way down just to knock the edge off a pickup a little. It's personal taste but I find audio pots more user friendly.

You explain that much better than the internet does. I knew there is a reason why we keep you around. :like: :happytrees: :lollers: :lollers:

This makes more sense than the other garbage i was reading.
:happytrees:
User avatar
Greg_L
Posts: 20629
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:07 pm
Location: Where the knuckle meets the poophole

Re: Wiring Issue

Post by Greg_L »

Lol. Just get on the Amazon or Ebay and get you:
2 - CTS 500k audio taper long shaft push/pull pots
2 - CTS 500k audio taper long shaft standard pots
2 - .022uf Orange Drop caps
About 4 feet of braided shield cloth pushback hookup wire
About 1 foot of buss wire for grounding
Optional - new switch and jack


You'll have the best wired guitar north of the north pole.
Rebel Yell
User avatar
WhiskeyJack
Site Admin
Posts: 11366
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:48 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Wiring Issue

Post by WhiskeyJack »

after having tried a guitar with the push pull pots i am going back to the drawing board on this little adventure. Given the nature of the lefty upsidedowny thing, the inside of my forearm makes the push pull push push counter intuitive. I may revisit some of those Seymour dinkun pick up ring switches instead. Id need to measure with a good set of calipers but i think it would work way better for me. I got the specs of seymour duncan today so i'll compare.

more to follow i guess.
:happytrees:
Post Reply