Jazz Noir tune W.I.P.

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Bubba
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Jazz Noir tune W.I.P.

Post by Bubba »

Like most of my stuff these days, this started as an extemporised drum performance by Frank. The drums are my new (old) drum set with some posh Zildjian and Dream cymbals. I fucked up the kick drum tracking, so that has been beefed up with a kick sub sample.

I'm developing this just as a piece of music at the moment. I'm not sure how I want it to turn out but I'm pleased with how it's developing so far.

Comments, ideas, anyone?
Jazz Noir update 13 feb.mp3
Update with retracked guitars and bass, fettled drum overheads and a distorted harmonic feedback track. I'll probably keep this idea, but I'll drop it in and out. I'll also retrack parts of it with more "considered" note choices. It needs an element of cacophony underlying everything.

Ok, I've finally added some vocals, some percussion and a lead guitar intro. I've also been experimenting with some dub-style automated reverb and delay sends. This is still a work in progress, but I think most of the tracking is done now. I may try to sing it better and I need some primal screaming on it!

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Last edited by Bubba on Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:28 am, edited 4 times in total.
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rayc
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Re: Jazz Noir tune W.I.P.

Post by rayc »

It's very cool, some of the chord changes give me a Magazine feeling.
My only nit would be the way the chorusing(?) effect deals with the lower notes on the arpeggio guitar.
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Re: Jazz Noir tune W.I.P.

Post by Greg_L »

I was actually fine with it until the overdriven guitar came in and the drums went triplet fill crazy. Lol. That part is way too Pink Floydy for me. But that's just me. I think the reverb is hurting the overheads. The cymbals sound pretty sizzly and washy. Guitars and bass sound real good.
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Re: Jazz Noir tune W.I.P.

Post by Lt. Bob »

nice .... me likey.

I was actually gonna say I liked the chorusing warble that Ray didn't like .... I found it interesting ..... an anarchic sort of sound.
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Re: Jazz Noir tune W.I.P.

Post by rayc »

Lt. Bob wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:37 am nice .... me likey.

I was actually gonna say I liked the chorusing warble that Ray didn't like .... I found it interesting ..... an anarchic sort of sound.
I like the warble bit just not what it did at the front of the bassier notes - I don't have the vocab to describe it properly.
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Re: Jazz Noir tune W.I.P.

Post by Lt. Bob »

rayc wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:48 am

I like the warble bit just not what it did at the front of the bassier notes - I don't have the vocab to describe it properly.
I know what you're talking about ..... I liked it .... yes, it actually made the notes all out of tune but I liked it.
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Re: Jazz Noir tune W.I.P.

Post by Bubba »

rayc wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:51 pm It's very cool, some of the chord changes give me a Magazine feeling.
My only nit would be the way the chorusing(?) effect deals with the lower notes on the arpeggio guitar.
Thanks, Ray - I get what you mean about those notes. They're kind of pulled a little out of tune by the turnaround at the bottom of the flange effect. I'm retracking most instruments for a better performance today. Because the flanger is a pedal and it's printed, I'll turn the width control down a bit before retracking, that should attenuate the effect. I do want the piece to have a discomfiting feel, though.
Greg_L wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:40 pm I was actually fine with it until the overdriven guitar came in and the drums went triplet fill crazy. Lol. That part is way too Pink Floydy for me. But that's just me. I think the reverb is hurting the overheads. The cymbals sound pretty sizzly and washy. Guitars and bass sound real good.
Thanks Greg, and good call about the overheads. I'll pull some of them out of the reverb and take some of the top end off the reverb effect.

Sorry about the Floydness, LOL :lollers2:

Incidentally, the guitar is loaded with a MuttPups Bubba Bucker in the bridge position. It's based on the BK Riff Raff but is wound a little more for higher output.
Lt. Bob wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:14 am
rayc wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:48 am

I like the warble bit just not what it did at the front of the bassier notes - I don't have the vocab to describe it properly.
I know what you're talking about ..... I liked it .... yes, it actually made the notes all out of tune but I liked it.
Thanks, Bob. I'm glad you in particular like it because what I'm going for is a melodic sense based on uncomfortable intervals and slightly unnerving discords. I want to end up with a memorable melody that pulls all the awkwardness together and makes it great. My model for this is the Beach Boys' "God Only Knows". That is a sublime melody, all the more so because of the awkward flats and sharps that it throws in. I think writing melody over that kind of structure is really, really hard, but if you can make it work it's special.
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Re: Jazz Noir tune W.I.P.

Post by JD01 »

Bob, I think this sounds cool as fuck actually.
The depth on the flanger could probably be dialed back a little, but don't neuter it too much, I think getting cleaner takes with no little errors will improve it more than easing off the flanger.
The crunch guitar for the solo sounds great.

On the weird flanger arpeggios, the note choice is generally really good. But then occasionally you stick in an extra little lick with a slide up and down that doesn't really fit - sounds too conventional in this song. I wouldn't try and embellish the flanger guitar with too many extra licks. Play less, leave a bit more space and fill it out with another guitar doing more weird stuff - crazy delays?

When you're re-tracking it I think you should make sure the playing is tight as fuck with the kick on the start of the bars, make sure the piano and bass are right on the beat. The song will still sound floaty and weird, I don't think this will detract from its creapyness at all.
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Re: Jazz Noir tune W.I.P.

Post by Bubba »

JD01 wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:43 am Bob, I think this sounds cool as fuck actually.
The depth on the flanger could probably be dialed back a little, but don't neuter it too much, I think getting cleaner takes with no little errors will improve it more than easing off the flanger.
The crunch guitar for the solo sounds great.

On the weird flanger arpeggios, the note choice is generally really good. But then occasionally you stick in an extra little lick with a slide up and down that doesn't really fit - sounds too conventional in this song. I wouldn't try and embellish the flanger guitar with too many extra licks. Play less, leave a bit more space and fill it out with another guitar doing more weird stuff - crazy delays?

When you're re-tracking it I think you should make sure the playing is tight as fuck with the kick on the start of the bars, make sure the piano and bass are right on the beat. The song will still sound floaty and weird, I don't think this will detract from its creapyness at all.
Well thanks, JD. I'm pleased with how it's going, and as you say, the biggest fault with this is the performances. They're not remotely tight enough, probably because I went with the first take that wasn't a complete disaster for each performance before moving on to the next element. I have all my tones noted down and dialled in, so I just need to play it better. One thing I will do during the tracking is put the metronome back in. Frank's drumming is so sparse in places and his drum hits push and pull the beat so much that it's not easy to maintain the timing without it.

That's a good call about not embellishing that guitar part. My preference is always to uncomplicate the parts and get the complexity from how the parts play off each other. When you have a massively empty song, the temptation is to fill it up a bit and you're right, I don't need to put those parts in.
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Re: Jazz Noir tune W.I.P.

Post by JD01 »

Bubba wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:59 am That's a good call about not embellishing that guitar part. My preference is always to uncomplicate the parts and get the complexity from how the parts play off each other. When you have a massively empty song, the temptation is to fill it up a bit and you're right, I don't need to put those parts in.
Cool - keeping the flanger part really basic will probably make it easier to nail a perfect take too, while also keeping the flanger from being too intrusive to the point where it just sounds a bit messy. Adding another guitar instead will give you more options too as you won't be tied to riffing with the flanger tone with the position and chord voicing for the flanger part of the song. Its a win, win!
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Re: Jazz Noir tune W.I.P.

Post by muttley »

Quite a bit of Zappa going on there Bubba... :like:
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Re: Jazz Noir tune W.I.P.

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muttley wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:09 am Quite a bit of Zappa going on there Bubba... :like:
Ha ha, you think so? Probably accidental as I'm not greatly familiar with his stuff. I'm interested in anti-melody. Stuff that shouldn't work but does. More sophisticated, surprising harmonic and melodic happenings are really my thing. It's why I like Magazine and Jonny Greenwood's playing. As the late Great Mark E. Smith put it "If you're gonna play out of tune, play it out of tune properly". To me, that's how you get new-sounding music because you're not treading the same old rutted path. And real beauty can suddenly pop out of the ugliness and seem a hundred times more beautiful because of the context.

I'm not there yet, but I can dream.
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Re: Jazz Noir tune W.I.P.

Post by JD01 »

Bubba wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:51 am
muttley wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:09 am Quite a bit of Zappa going on there Bubba... :like:
Ha ha, you think so? Probably accidental as I'm not greatly familiar with his stuff. I'm interested in anti-melody. Stuff that shouldn't work but does. More sophisticated, surprising harmonic and melodic happenings are really my thing. It's why I like Magazine and Jonny Greenwood's playing. As the late Great Mark E. Smith put it "If you're gonna play out of tune, play it out of tune properly". To me, that's how you get new-sounding music because you're not treading the same old rutted path. And real beauty can suddenly pop out of the ugliness and seem a hundred times more beautiful because of the context.

I'm not there yet, but I can dream.
That's one of the reason's I started experimenting with loads of weird scales recently. I'm not getting rigidly stuck in the scales but starting off in of of them forces you off in a direction that you're already unfamilar with.
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Re: Jazz Noir tune W.I.P.

Post by muttley »

You'd probably get along with quite a bit of his catalogue. He was big on breaking out of the accepted contempory box and was prolly one if the most diverse musicians of his generation. I'll try and link to a gee examples that reflect your methods expressed above... Out right now for the first time this week.
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Re: Jazz Noir tune W.I.P.

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JD01 wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:00 am
Bubba wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:51 am

Ha ha, you think so? Probably accidental as I'm not greatly familiar with his stuff. I'm interested in anti-melody. Stuff that shouldn't work but does. More sophisticated, surprising harmonic and melodic happenings are really my thing. It's why I like Magazine and Jonny Greenwood's playing. As the late Great Mark E. Smith put it "If you're gonna play out of tune, play it out of tune properly". To me, that's how you get new-sounding music because you're not treading the same old rutted path. And real beauty can suddenly pop out of the ugliness and seem a hundred times more beautiful because of the context.

I'm not there yet, but I can dream.
That's one of the reasons I started experimenting with loads of weird scales recently. I'm not getting rigidly stuck in the scales but starting off in of of them forces you off in a direction that you're already unfamilar with.
Couple that with interval changes that don't follow common chord theory and finding a melody that enables you to modulate between them. That puts you in the ballpark of what I find interesting.
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Re: Jazz Noir tune W.I.P.

Post by musicturtle »

Bubba wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:51 am
muttley wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:09 am Quite a bit of Zappa going on there Bubba... :like:
Ha ha, you think so? Probably accidental as I'm not greatly familiar with his stuff. I'm interested in anti-melody. Stuff that shouldn't work but does. More sophisticated, surprising harmonic and melodic happenings are really my thing. It's why I like Magazine and Jonny Greenwood's playing. As the late Great Mark E. Smith put it "If you're gonna play out of tune, play it out of tune properly". To me, that's how you get new-sounding music because you're not treading the same old rutted path. And real beauty can suddenly pop out of the ugliness and seem a hundred times more beautiful because of the context.

I'm not there yet, but I can dream.
I think you did a really good job of blending consistency and the unexpected. There is a flow to the tune, but it's not something you would normally hear in mainstream music. At the same time I can see myself coming away from this with the tune stuck in my head.

I agree with JD that tightening up the overall guitar performance will help.
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Re: Jazz Noir tune W.I.P.

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Bubba wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:08 am
JD01 wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:00 am
That's one of the reasons I started experimenting with loads of weird scales recently. I'm not getting rigidly stuck in the scales but starting off in of of them forces you off in a direction that you're already unfamilar with.
Couple that with interval changes that don't follow common chord theory and finding a melody that enables you to modulate between them. That puts you in the ballpark of what I find interesting.
Yeah, that's why the Hungarian Minor immediately appealed to me. It had sections in it that were three semitones together followed by a gap of a whole tone, then two more semitones next to each other. You can build weird combinations of chords with it.
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Re: Jazz Noir tune W.I.P.

Post by Bubba »

musicturtle wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:11 am

I think you did a really good job of blending consistency and the unexpected. There is a flow to the tune, but it's not something you would normally hear in mainstream music. At the same time I can see myself coming away from this with the tune stuck in my head.

I agree with JD that tightening up the overall guitar performance will help.
Thanks, that's a really nice comment. I've been retracking for tighter performances today, there's an update in the OP. :smiles:
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Re: Jazz Noir tune W.I.P.

Post by vomitHatSteve »

I can see the pink floyd comparison.
I like floyd tho, so it's not a problem.

The mix sounds pretty good. Nothing seems to be sticking out as not fitting in. I wouldn't mind it being more metal, but that's just my preference.
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Re: Jazz Noir tune W.I.P.

Post by Armistice »

I can't hear Pink Floyd at all, TBH - although people are perhaps referring to earlier stuff I'm not overly familiar with, however.

Nice stuff - I've only just found this so I'm listening to the retrack, not the original. Has a nice haunting quality to it - that little riff gets into your head through repetition and the unusual flanging - which at the start I thought was a bit OTT but by halfway through I'd settled in with - and that son of yours certainly can drum, very impressive feel to it all. Won't comment on the recording as I'm just listening through laptop speakers but as a piece of music it's very nice. Be interesting to see how and where it goes, but it's pretty good as it is in the right setting.
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