Sandpaper Castles 1811

Your Mom loves your mixes, but are they really up to scratch? Post your tracks here and get the community's feedback to help with the spit and polish. Impress us! We don't bite.
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rayc
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Sandpaper Castles 1811

Post by rayc »

Trying to get my head around Autotune (I've avoided using it but have a couple of tracks that will never be rerecorded so it's this or nothing). Gerry has done a couple of tracks for me & done so almost invisibly too. Thanks Gerry. I decided to pull this old song up, ditch my rotten cello parts and do a remix as well as auto tune + phrasing slide job.
What is it about the women I've worked with that they phrase so oddly - other than Trish on HR her phrasing was cool though she was a little pitchy- ?
This isn't finished- I think it works up until the 3min mark after which it needs some serious work still, (& I know several of you would say it should need nothing after 3 mins except to press replay if it's any good).
I did post the backing on HR at some stage.
Miriam, my former cello tutor sang & did the melody. Her vocal is drenched in printed on reverb - back in the 4track cassette days & an Alesis Microverb I'm afraid.
Slightly reggae bass, which is HEAVILY EQd in an attempt to get a Carol Kaye tone.
Strummed guitar tracks with a trem accent track.
BIAB drums and organ.
Gerry has had a crack at tuning the vocals. Quite successful given the circumstances. - I still need to do a little sliding of phrases late in the piece but here ya go...any thoughts?
SPCnewvoxgdB.mp3
This is a version I'm doing on the side as I'm trying to learn how to use the Mel9 properly.
The Mel9 choirs, flute & cello are on this. Using a Fender Twin sim plus spring reverb seems to work for the Mel at present.
SPCMEL141017gdB.mp3
I followed Gerry's suggestion regarding vocal level as well as taking some bottom end from the "cello" and getting rid of an accidental harmonic ping or two...
SPC1811151017gd.mp3
Newer updates- replaced a guitar and raised vocals amongst other things...
The slightly baroque pop version
SPCMel9171017gd.mp3
and the straighter version
SPCstr171017gd.mp3
The latest, and hopefully near final, mix. Gerry/Ido did a new solo to replace my cruddy one. The vocals are a little high up for my tastes but it seems most folk like a singer clear & loud. I've also evened the "flutes" a bit.
spcastlesMell061117.mp3
Sandpaper Castles 1811

I'll build a sandpaper castle,
Beneath the noonday sun,
I'll sit & watch the people,
& laugh as they run.
Within my silent citadel,
I'll shut out the world,
& shelter in my fortress,
Making plans that won't unfurl.
I'll celebrate my solitude,
With music, wine & song,
Loneliness won't reach me;
Nothing can go wrong.
I'll fill my day with minutes,
& watch them slip away,
Eternally grateful for the present,
& the memories they slay.
Just sit & play old records,
& scratch them when they're done,
Try to destroy the memories,
But can they be outrun?
Almost silently the day breaks,
& with it comes the rain,
So I sit in semi darkness,
& pray to go insane.
My mask I'll wear to meals,
For 'tis the part I'd planned,
You know!
The same old story,
In castles made of sand...

copyright cochrane
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Last edited by rayc on Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:53 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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vomitHatSteve
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Re: Sandpaper Castles 1811

Post by vomitHatSteve »

So reverb-heavy vocals through an auto-tune? That's gonna be an uphill battle.

She is pretty pitchy as you have it now. She's also very "distant" and a little buried. If that 'verb is printed on, you're gonna have a bad time with a lot of this mix!
Maybe the guitars could use more verb? They sound pretty close.
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ido1957
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Re: Sandpaper Castles 1811

Post by ido1957 »

Hey Ray - I don't use Melodyne (I have a light version in Sonar and it sucks) or Autotune (don't own it). I use V-Vocal which is no longer available in Sonar, so I open X2 where it still runs, and then export the finished product and use it wherever. I was peeved when they discontinued it but for now I can still open it on an old version.

If you have v-Vocal give it a look and play around with a copy of the track. Do small sections, bounce the track after each revision and SAVE often. If you want me to work on this send me a file and I'll fiddle with it. I did Terry's and I think it had reverb on it too and it worked ok. Of course every track is different, but always worth a shot. You can also consider using it for your cello, not sure how that might work but again, worth a try.

Steph got home yesterday and talked non-stop about her job (+ and -). She's growing as a teacher - it's amazing how she's adapting her knowledge and experience in a positive way. She's in town for a "new" teachers' convention until Sunday - good to see her even though it's only been a month :)

Needless to say I'm exhausted today having stayed up way too late taxi-ing her around chatting etc.
People want something for nothing, they want it right now. Either they can't tell quality or don't care but feel it is important that everyone agrees with them.
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rayc
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Re: Sandpaper Castles 1811

Post by rayc »

vomitHatSteve wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:00 pm She is pretty pitchy as you have it now.
Yeah to all of that - not something new I'm afraid she would always ask for dollops of reverb when recording as she was shy etc. In 4 track & outboard gear days the options were very limited.
It's something to use as a learning opportunity.
You should hear her without the autotuning that's been done to date!
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rayc
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Re: Sandpaper Castles 1811

Post by rayc »

ido1957 wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:41 pm Do small sections, bounce the track after each revision and SAVE often. If you want me to work on this send me a file and I'll fiddle with it. I did Terry's and I think it had reverb on it too and it worked ok. Of course every track is different, but always worth a shot. You can also consider using it for your cello, not sure how that might work but again, worth a try.
Gerry,
I found Autotune in a bundle someone had sent me from around 2007. I've only used the auto aspect thus far because of my cloth ear.
I'll keep working on it this weekend and will shoot you a file or two next week if, as is most likely, I haven't any real success.
great that Steph is growing into the job AND that they have a conference for people in her situation. Canada is way ahead of the US, UK and Aust regarding educational prac. & theory. on a par with NZ I think.
I went up to the post office to send the thumb drive yesterday only to discover I didn't take it with me!!!!!! It's the Labour Day long weekend so won't get another change until Tuesday - sorry. In the meantime most Victorian, NSW & WA folk are celebrating the benefits of unionism by watching the Aussie Rules (Sat) &/or Rugby League (Sun) Grand Finals.
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rayc
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Re: Sandpaper Castles 1811

Post by rayc »

sorry - something went awry
Last edited by rayc on Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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TripleM
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Re: Sandpaper Castles 1811

Post by TripleM »

I thought this sounded pretty good. I liked the drum sound. Crash cymbals were a little soft and they decayed a bit fast. But I really liked the kick/snare. I like the bass sound - great articulation between notes. I always like a bass sound like that. The guitars sounded OK. They were a little far back in the mix. I think a little cleaner tone would work better on a song like this. The lead guitar was cool sounding.

The lead vocal was a little buried. She has a pleasant sounding voice. Her vocalizing gets a bit odd in spots. There are some pitchy spots. And there is quite a bit more reverb on the vocal than the other tracks. It sounds like it's in a different spot than the backing tracks.
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JD01
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Re: Sandpaper Castles 1811

Post by JD01 »

Ray, I don't think you're gonna get away with this without some re-tracking.
The vocal is pitchy and swimming in reverb.
The drums in the intro sound very canned too - your drums normally sound much better than this, when there's a bit more variation involved and some rides later they sound better.
The wah-wah solo doesn't really fit very well - it sounds like there's a pretty unusual change in the backing track - the singer appears to be struggling with it too - and the wah wah guitar doesn't fit with it very well at all.

Positives, its an interesting song which does grab your attention. I'd concentrate on getting the best mix you can completely instrumental and then try and get a re-tracked vocal to go with it, but work out what kind of vocal you want before you get it so you can mix it more easily.
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Re: Sandpaper Castles 1811

Post by Greg_L »

It just needs new vocals. Find another chick that can sing. I like the mix. I think the guitars and bass can come up.
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rayc
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Re: Sandpaper Castles 1811

Post by rayc »

MMM,
Thanks mate. the vocals are buried by the printed reverb and the fact that i know they need work on various levels. I'l up the guitars - they actually are pretty clean & will probably appear more so once lifted a little.Thanks.
James,
Intro drums - I was actually planning to drop them from the intro - or fade them in. I'll work on them.
The progression for the solo is odd - D -> Dm I don't know why I did that - way to long ago to recollect. The solo is also just a bassline on guitar with Wah.
Retracking vocals would be interesting - I'll have to find a female who isn't pitchy - I haven't had much success with that to date. I've managed to find three interesting voices with female singers - Miriam on this, Fritsthegirl on Watch & Trudy on HSB: each has been pitchy enough to require treatment.
Greg,
Yeah, I know. B & G on the way up.
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cakewalkKaKed
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Re: Sandpaper Castles 1811

Post by cakewalkKaKed »

ray :) try this

get a singer to sing acapella with no reference track/note .. give them nothing to base their pitch off ... cos they have no reference what you should get is a true representation of their vocal talent ... if you do this and they sound good (or at least better) read on ...




kinda like putting a new set of strings on a guitar,without a tuner in a quiet room,you`d tune the guitar until it "feels" right .. when you play everythings in tune,every bend,every chord .. lovely! now try playing in E along with an E chord played,say on a piano ... OUCH!!! (unless your one of the lucky minority to have perfect pitch) guitar is now terrible,and now struggle with every note to get it "tuned"


the source of the problem is a persons "inbuilt pitch" ("feel") .... a vocalist would base their performance on "internal" note relationships ...



i.e the perfect C a vocalist hears in the head is flat ...



solution is to put a good tuner on the acapella track,watch the tuner needle .. it will go hi,it will go lo .. find the center,take note of the position of the needle ... wherever that is is our reference

tune your other instruments to that ..
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rayc
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Re: Sandpaper Castles 1811

Post by rayc »

cakewalkKaKed wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:37 am ray :) try this
a) get a singer
b) tune your other instruments to that ..
cakewalkKaKed,
Hello.
Interesting proposition.
The even tempered vocalist, as your process suggests, hasn't made an appearance often in my female vocalist list.
With regard to the salient points:
a) is the hard part.
b) is annoying to do when I've, usually, almost finished the track before singer commits.
Good plan for when I find someone long term though.
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cakewalkKaKed
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Re: Sandpaper Castles 1811

Post by cakewalkKaKed »

rayc wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:40 pm
cakewalkKaKed wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:37 am ray :) try this
a) get a singer
b) tune your other instruments to that ..
cakewalkKaKed,
Hello.
Interesting proposition.
The even tempered vocalist, as your process suggests, hasn't made an appearance often in my female vocalist list.
With regard to the salient points:
a) is the hard part.
b) is annoying to do when I've, usually, almost finished the track before singer commits.
Good plan for when I find someone long term though.

aww,worth bearing in mind for the future .. with any vocalist,minimizes the amount of autotune type editing .. and once you find their reference you can give em a referenced reference note :nyuk:

point b) is easy ... bounce down all to a stereo track ... micro tune bounced track to singy`s reference pitch ... get flat singy to do the work .. delete (or mute) bounced track .. bounce down the best vocal takes you edited together ... micro tune the bounced vocal to standard pitch (your already started track) ... tada!
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ido1957
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Re: Sandpaper Castles 1811

Post by ido1957 »

As a singer I need a track of the music playing when I record. I would expect that is the case with the average singer - they need a point of reference to follow. I wouldn't even consider tuning my guitar to a singer after the fact.

Now on an aside...When I write a song, I write the words then record the vocal melody (usually in pieces) with zero instruments. i.e. - no musical reference. I do use a drum machine for timing. Once the melody is done, I pick up a guitar and find the closest key to what I recorded. But I don't re-tune as the vocal track is a scratch track. I record all the guitar tracks in the "closest" key, then re-sing it against the guitars.

Just my 2 cents....
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JD01
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Re: Sandpaper Castles 1811

Post by JD01 »

rayc wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:05 am The progression for the solo is odd - D -> Dm I don't know why I did that
Ah, you might have to a bit careful what you play there so you don't just end up sounding out of tune.
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rayc
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Re: Sandpaper Castles 1811

Post by rayc »

ido1957 wrote: Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:51 am I write the words
then the vocal melody - no musical reference.
guitar and find the closest key
record all the guitar tracks in the "closest" key,
then re-sing it against the guitars.
Ah, the process of someone who sings, writes and plays very well.
Triple threat!
I usually have lyrics pre-written
I wait for a progression to come together
Find a set of lyrics that roughly fit the mood and structure of the progression
Record the progression as a full backing
Co-opt a lead solo player
Work on the lyrics in terms of phrasing to fit the progression/backing
SOMETIMES this will produce a rudimentary melody
Search for a singer to add voice &, more often than not, melody
It's a case of me working with a limited skill set.
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Re: Sandpaper Castles 1811

Post by 7String »

I think the song has a lot of possibilities but there's nothing much I can offer that hasn't already been said.
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rayc
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Re: Sandpaper Castles 1811

Post by rayc »

New mix is in the OP.
Gerry has had a crack at tuning the vocals.
Quite successful given the circumstances. - I still need to do a little sliding of phrases late in the piece but here ya go...
I've replaced one of the guitars as it was a little out of time so I added the cleanest I could get from my little 5 watt tube amp with a LOT of compression going into it.
I also added an arpeggio guitar.
Any thoughts?
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rayc
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Re: Sandpaper Castles 1811

Post by rayc »

Hello - as is now my custom - ear resting, (for me), alternate mix is in the OP. A bit of a baroque pop attempt that makes it to over reach I suppose. ANYWAY, it meant I left the main one alone as no one has commented on it & I don't know whether to call it done or do more to it SO the aternate pop filled the gap.
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ido1957
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Re: Sandpaper Castles 1811

Post by ido1957 »

That Mel9 is really cool on V2 :) I would like a bit more vocal myself, the different arrangement on V2 does allow them to come out a bit more, but I'd up them. Then again I'm a singer - so I'm biased :)
People want something for nothing, they want it right now. Either they can't tell quality or don't care but feel it is important that everyone agrees with them.
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