Two Different takes on HSB

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rayc
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Two Different takes on HSB

Post by rayc »

Having finished with HSB I did the silly version for my Mel9 review which brought to my attention the potential in the thing for an acoustic version.
I asked Armistice to throw in some acoustic tracks and anything else he though would be interesting.
He ended sending some acoustic and electric tracks which were cool so I went in two directions: a) an acoustic version and b) an electric version that wasn't as chugga as the original.
Armi/David noted that there was some pitchiness in the voice so I asked Gerry/Ido1957 to attempt to address those electronically for me.
I did a mix with the tweaked vocals today. Armistice hasn't had a chance to hear these as I assume he's on his LP boomerang road trip. I know he wanted to rework the noodling guitar at some stage, (it's through the Mel9 strings in the acoustic version), and I hadn't lined things up brilliantly BUT here they are at this stage of the mix:
Heart Shaped Bruise acoustic
and
Heart Shaped Bruise electric
The details for the next two are at the bottom of the page.
Timing comparison Acoustic version...

Worked on rock version
hsbRK230917gdB.mp3
I spent some time doing what was suggested - 10 m/sec nudge, thinned out the overlap in mellotron, add a little mid to the vocals and reduced their level plus worked on the bass in the rock version so it has a little more meat - I did have a cool VST on it that REALLY beefed up the bottom end but it caused all sorts of problems with CPU usage etc so dropped it for a run with the BOD.
HSBacous240917.mp3
HSBrock240917nudgeBOD.mp3
I gutted the project and reinserted the guitar tracks.
I also moved the Mellotron and tweaked the balanced between the two parts of the solo.
HSBgtrreintrogdBB.mp3
Based on the observations of James & Gerry I've slid the vocal track along a bit. It sounds about right to me but that's been the problem all along. let me know what you think re a) the vocal alignment & b) the guitars with the drums please...
HSB280917voxtwkGD.mp3
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Last edited by rayc on Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:05 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Greg_L
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Re: Two Different takes on HSB

Post by Greg_L »

Ray I think the vocals are too far forward - both in mix level and timing. Something's not lined up. The backing music seems to be in time, so I think the vocals are not lined up.

The electric version is better to me. But all those guitars and vocals are stomping on the drums. Bring that stuff down a little so the drums can pop more.
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vomitHatSteve
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Re: Two Different takes on HSB

Post by vomitHatSteve »

Yeah, those lead vox in the acoustic version are super-loud. The editing seems to stick out a lot for it too.
I'm also not a fan of the synth violins. Just let synthesizers be synthesizers and not pretend to be other instruments!

The electric version is a lot better balanced. Drums probably could come up tho.
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Re: Two Different takes on HSB

Post by TripleM »

Agree that the vocal is not lined up in the acoustic version.

I'm hearing a pop at :49 in both versions. It's easier to hear in the acoustic version. Might be a mouth click. Another one at 1:35. Others too.

The rock version is a bit light for me. The bass could be a little louder and could maybe get a low end EQ boost.

The drums in the rock version are pretty far back. I'm thinking they should be really driving the song.
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Armistice
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Re: Two Different takes on HSB

Post by Armistice »

Hi ray - definitely sounding better than last I heard it, but I'd echo what others are saying - vox too loud, drums too soft, bit more bass. I'd turn the solos down a few dB too, poke it back into the mix. It's quite a trebly bass track from memory, so that low end may not be there to begin with.

I'm still of the opinion that the guitars aren't quite in lock step with the drums - although better than it was - and as for Trudy - it's not something you can fix by sliding her one way or other on the timeline, it's that her timing isn't great - you'd probably need to hack into the vocal track and do some serious editing in spots to bring her back into line with the rest of the song where she's straying. The pitchiness is way better though.

Haven't gone on the road trip yet - next Thursday - just needed to step away from the studio - and this song - for a bit. It had turned into an earworm and I couldn't concentrate on anything else.

Why don't you consider posting the stems up and seeing if one of these guys wants to mix it for you - see what they can do - could be a useful counterpoint you can use in your own mix.
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Re: Two Different takes on HSB

Post by ido1957 »

I had this vocal lined up with the acoustic backing track Ray provided when I worked on it, all the parts sound similar (so the pieces are the same). The vocals are a bit early - just nudging them to the right on the grid should fix it.
Same with the rock version - not as early but I would nudge that one too....
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Re: Two Different takes on HSB

Post by rayc »

Thanks chaps, chavs and Chiquitas,
Gerry commented on the timing when he did a little pitch correction and had an accurate figure as well but, to my ear, the issue seems restricted to the 1st couple of phrases.
Greg, I kept the rhythm section low in this mix because it's the same as the original version and so it's a little busy. I'll bring it up no worries - that is the intention anyway. Ta for the listen & iseas.
VHS, Yeah the vox are loud I pushed them up so that any pitchiness would be highlighted and possibly mentioned. The synths are Mel9 - meant not to sound like anything but a Mellotron & it's getting there to my ears but that's the vexed nature of Mellotrons I guess. Thanks mate.
TripleM, Thanks mate. Yeah, I had, previously, extensive volume editing to take out quite a lot of extraneous mouth noise but when I popped this treated version into the mix I didn't do the same as was waiting to find out if the treatment worked well enough, thanks Gerry - it did. I will now go in and attempt to address the timing and noise.
David, All is as you say. Gerry's feedback about the pitchiness - the amount of spots he had to address and by how much - was interesting. Get through the hot weekend ahead and have a grand trip.
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Bubba
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Re: Two Different takes on HSB

Post by Bubba »

Armistice wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:30 pm
Why don't you consider posting the stems up and seeing if one of these guys wants to mix it for you - see what they can do - could be a useful counterpoint you can use in your own mix.
I'd have a go at that. :)
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rayc
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Re: Two Different takes on HSB

Post by rayc »

I'll have a go at mixing today and sort some stems out.
I've been inactive for a few days: hadn't eaten from late Tuesday night until Friday evening, sleeping in 1 hour lots, throwing up at regular intervals etc. I wasn't really in any condition to try mixing but wanted to do something. Added to that I had to go back to my place of work yesterday and referee a 40 minute touch football game. It was 30 Celsius so the kids playing were subbed on & off to reduce the heat stroke possibilities but I had the good fortune of running around for the full 40! Oddly enough I came off better than I'd been before hand when I was afraid I'd just collapse in the middle of it.
Last edited by rayc on Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:33 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Two Different takes on HSB

Post by rayc »

I'm feeling better today & more able to focus. Gerry sent me a time adjusted vocal and I've popped it into a naked mix and followed it up with that same vocal but altered, time wise, slightly by me.
It seems there's a definite problem with rendered tracks from my computer being wrong when they come out of mixes lately. Gerry has had the prob with my files as has David - & that's the main issue with me lining up the electric guitars. Strange stuff that I can't find the origin of. There aren't any markers etc in place to make a start at the wrong time as far as I can see. Oh well, I do need to do an update (& pay again I suppose).
Anyway, there's just intro, verse & chorus of each. Which sounds correct folks?
HSBacGadjRaytweak.mp3
Here's a remix of the rock version - more drums more bass in the bass (may have to lower the bass - you tell me!) and I spent quite some time working with guitars and bass matching them to the drum track. No tweaks on this vocal at present. Thoughts?
hsbRK230917gdB.mp3
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Re: Two Different takes on HSB

Post by JD01 »

Ray, the timing is way out on the acoustic version at the start - its actually quite disconcerting to listen to! I've had this problem before when collaborating with people - I'm not sure what causes it. Seems bang on when it re-starts though.

I think the rock version is pretty tight, the only problem with that is the guitars synths mush together a bit so they sound muddy and thick. Greg might have a good idea what to do, but if was me I'd use ReaEQ, for a narrow 3 or 4 db cut and slide it up and down over my guitars until I find everything sounds clearer and then if you identify something you think might be useful work on it a bit more. That might be a bit of a amateur hour blunt instrument way of doing things but I've used it a few times
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Re: Two Different takes on HSB

Post by JD01 »

rayc wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:39 pm I'll have a go at mixing today and sort some stems out.
I've been inactive for a few days: hadn't eaten from late Tuesday night until Friday evening, sleeping in 1 hour lots, throwing up at regular intervals etc. I wasn't really in any condition to try mixing but wanted to do something. Added to that I had to go back to my place of work yesterday and referee a 40 minute touch football game. It was 30 Celsius so the kids playing were subbed on & off to reduce the heat stroke possibilities but I had the good fortune of running around for the full 40! Oddly enough I came off better than I'd been before hand when I was afraid I'd just collapse in the middle of it.
Sounds like you sweated out the poison.. you've probably kick-started your spring diet so you'll have you bikini-bod ready for summer!
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Re: Two Different takes on HSB

Post by rayc »

I've popped copies of the latest links into the original post.
Last edited by rayc on Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Two Different takes on HSB

Post by rayc »

JD01 wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:36 am Sounds like you sweated out the poison.. you've probably kick-started your spring diet so you'll have you bikini-bod ready for summer!
James,
re the acoustic version - ta - that's the sort of response I was looking for.
re the electric version - I think I'll take your advice but use it on the mellotron files - locate & reduce the heavily overlapped territory to free up the space for the guitars.
re my health - that does seem the best answer doesn't it.I'm rather sedentary so jump starting my metabolism was probably what was needed. PLUS I enjoyed m'self - I do miss the interaction & fun of my job.
Again, thanks.
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Re: Two Different takes on HSB

Post by Armistice »

Is there a bit rate thing at play here? Ray gave me MP3 files which I imported into Reapernwithout worrying about grids, etc., tracked my multiple bits, rendered WAVs from the exact same start point and so, in theory, it should be impossible to misalign them - just a matter of having them start at the same point. I had no issues on my system - it all grooves nicely, Trudi notwithstanding - so I'm surprised this is such a problem. Maybe I need to re-render them at a different bit rate or something?
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Re: Two Different takes on HSB

Post by rayc »

Armistice wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:36 am Is there a bit rate thing at play here?
Interesting idea David.
Gerry had .wav for the vocal and .MP3 for the backing and the timing, as you can hear from the 1st 1/2 of the comparison file, is significant.
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ido1957
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Re: Two Different takes on HSB

Post by ido1957 »

Hey Ray - the latest electric version is lined up pretty well. You might want to try nudging another 10ms to the right on the lead vocal to see whether it improves the tightness between vocals and music, or it's optimum now.
Although the vocal is a good level, there is some difference between the "tone" of the vocal versus the backing. Somewhere in the low/mid? guitar range is the frequency I'd add to the vocal (or subtract elsewhere to bring it out).
The "fixed" vocal sounds pretty damn good if I do say so myself. This song is much easier to enjoy just listening now.
People want something for nothing, they want it right now. Either they can't tell quality or don't care but feel it is important that everyone agrees with them.
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ido1957
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Re: Two Different takes on HSB

Post by ido1957 »

Hey again - that second half of the acoustic is lined up the same so again maybe 10ms. Nice simple arrangement, the guitar is carrying this very well, cool, intimate, like a night at the Jubillee Auditorium.
The vocals are more noticeably back of the stage on the lined up version, and could use maybe a touch of those mids. The off time version is my preferred, the vocals have a closer, fuller sound, just a tiny bit loud, but nicer (just my taste).
People want something for nothing, they want it right now. Either they can't tell quality or don't care but feel it is important that everyone agrees with them.
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Re: Two Different takes on HSB

Post by rayc »

ido1957 wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:52 pm The "fixed" vocal sounds pretty damn good if I do say so myself. This song is much easier to enjoy just listening now.
Thanks Gerry, you did a fabulous job - no artifacts to be found.
Thanks also for the detailed response.
I'll attempt those things over the next day or so & get back with a tweaked mix.
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Re: Two Different takes on HSB

Post by rayc »

I spent some time doing what was suggested - 10 m/sec nudge, thinned out the overlap in mellotron, add a little mid to the vocals and reduced their level plus worked on the bass in the rock version so it has a little more meat - I did have a cool VST on it that REALLY beefed up the bottom end but it caused all sorts of problems with CPU usage etc so dropped it for a run with the BOD.
The MP3s are in the OP.
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