Master Compressor?

Vocals too high in the mix? Too low? Not even sure? Snare sounds wonky? And how do I make everything louder than everything else? Step in, step in, for your mix Viagra from people who know the secrets.
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rammer24
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Re: Master Compressor?

Post by rammer24 »

Lt. Bob wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:13 pm ..... but the sound is specifically what I DON'T like.
I dislike the way it sounds ....
Got it.

But guitars basically are already compressed by the amp and I dislike the way comps screw with the attack on sax .... the area I'm trying to use it on a bit is vox, but so far I mostly don't like it there either.
Yeah, I don't compress distorted guitars either. Clean guitars might need it. I wouldn't know about sax. I wonder if horns are usually compressed.
I'm not alone in this ..... there are big name engineers and producers who avoid it also.
Yes, I've heard that. Many try not to use EQ either. They try to accomplsih those things during tracking the process.

I think certain types of music can get away without compression. But most rock/punk/pop probably needs it to some degree. Even the Beatles had serious compression going on, even in their lighter tunes. I'm sure something softer like "Loggins and Messina" or a song like "Moondance" by Van Morrison needs the dynamics and might not have much or any compression on it.

It's all a matter of preference.
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miroslav
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Re: Master Compressor?

Post by miroslav »

Compression can sound many different ways...there isn't any one kind of compression...depending on how much is used and the type of compression circuit used,

I think the stuff that most people don't like is the over-compressed sound of much of modern music. The idea to compress it hard enough to basically flatten everything out...and then raise/lower the level as one set thing all the way across, and in most cases bring it up to the max, so that every note, every word, every drum hit...is all coming through with the same loudness.
That's what has given compression an ugly rep for many.

Used sparingly, mildly, creatively...you're not going to hear that kind of leveling...and instead it actually acts more like an EQ, because you can change the color, the tonal balance, by bringing certain frequencies forward or back in the track/mix.

They are not easy to get a feel for the first time you use a comp...and most people miss the nuances and end up pushing them too hard, so they can really hear them working...which can sometimes be used as an intention effect...but I think when you really hear it, it's probably already too much.
Not unlike reverb to some degree...where you might over-crank it so that it's obvious, but then it's too much.
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WhiskeyJack
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Re: Master Compressor?

Post by WhiskeyJack »

miroslav wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:33 pmThey are not easy to get a feel for the first time you use a comp...
Truth ^^^

It took me a long time to grasp how to use a comp somewhat effectively. I'd even go so far as to say to even understand when and why i would want to. I did it for the longest time becasue i read forums, articles and stuff saying "you gotta compress" So i just did. So as newb punk rock kid doing final mixdowns on ear buds i just put a compressor on something moved some shit around until i heard stuff better and said "there" i compressed. I win. :lollers2: :lollers: :spacepalm: :happytrees: :happytrees: :coolstorybro:


I still think my mixing and use of stuff like compression and spatial affects like reverb and delay need a lot of work. my own fault, i don't ever set aside near enough time to do a large chunk of work. One song here and there isn't really an effective practice to learn this shit, i admit that much.

I love this thread for this though. Bookmarking it for ever.

Greg_L wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:12 pm Agreed. I love hipsters and granola i could hug every hipster i see and feed them granola
Greg, why do you do multi levels of limiting? Would you mind going into that a bit more? the benefits of doing that opposed to other people adding compression and all that shit? or is that sort of a individual thing you'd rather not share too much detail on casue it makes your sound the way it sounds.
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miroslav
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Re: Master Compressor?

Post by miroslav »

IMO...the first and best way to get familiar with a comp is to throw it on a drum track in solo...nothing else...and then just fuck with one parameter at a time from extreme to extreme...to see what it does, and then fine-tune each setting more and more until you start to recognize the effect of more subtle settings.
The transients of drum hits make it easier to see how Attack and Release work...and the combinations of them with Threshold and Ratio.

I'm sure Greg will answer...but one reason to use multiple comps/limiters is so you can 1.) set them differently and 2.) use each one more subtlety instead of depending on one unit/one pass to do it all.
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JD01
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Re: Master Compressor?

Post by JD01 »

WhiskeyJack wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:52 pm

I still think my mixing and use of stuff like compression and spatial affects like reverb and delay need a lot of work. my own fault, i don't ever set aside near enough time to do a large chunk of work. One song here and there isn't really an effective practice to learn this shit, i admit that much.
Me too. I've worked out how to use compression to wipe the peaks out of my shoddy vocals and get the really loud screams to a managable dynamic level. I'm still pretty clueless about how attack and release will affect my sound - I know what the terms mean, and I'm happy to play with them to alter a drum sound - but I won't hear something and go, "Oh that, needs a faster attack and a slower release"

The only time I've really used compression on guitar is with my fake punk-reggae wah skanking and acoustic guitar, not really playing with the attack and release much, just using the threshold and ratio to take the peaks off and make it smoother.

I'm starting to get there with reverbs but I still have a long way to go.
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Re: Master Compressor?

Post by WhiskeyJack »

JD01 wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:33 pm
WhiskeyJack wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:52 pm

I still think my mixing and use of stuff like compression and spatial affects like reverb and delay need a lot of work. my own fault, i don't ever set aside near enough time to do a large chunk of work. One song here and there isn't really an effective practice to learn this shit, i admit that much.
Me too. I've worked out how to use compression to wipe the peaks out of my shoddy vocals and get the really loud screams to a managable dynamic level. I'm still pretty clueless about how attack and release will affect my sound - I know what the terms mean, and I'm happy to play with them to alter a drum sound - but I won't hear something and go, "Oh that, needs a faster attack and a slower release"

The only time I've really used compression on guitar is with my fake punk-reggae wah skanking and acoustic guitar, not really playing with the attack and release much, just using the threshold and ratio to take the peaks off and make it smoother.

I'm starting to get there with reverbs but I still have a long way to go.
Dude it is like i am having a conversation with myself. Ditto the Attack and release 100% espically on drums. Attack and release and the other big one is ratio's? Wtf? lately i have been just loaded a reaper preset for some thing as a guideline then i will play with everything and see what it does but my ADHD just doesn't allow me to focus on one thing at time.

Maybe we need to shift gears into the newbs section JD hahaha?? :facepalm:

Realistically though miros advice is spot on. take one feature and play with it and see what it does. I think i am going to try that on the track i am currently working on. Timing works out great because i just scrapped an old drum track and put in an all new one and pieced together a bit better of a kit with EZD2 rather than that stock out of the box kit EZD1 ships with. that thing sounds SOOOOO fake. The more i play with EZD2 the more i sort of like it. But not to drift away from the subject at hand, i will be monkeying around with miro's suggestion for sure!
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rammer24
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Re: Master Compressor?

Post by rammer24 »

WhiskeyJack wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2017 6:14 pm Ditto the Attack and release 100% espically on drums. Attack and release and the other big one is ratio's?
I think Miro already touched on this. But the best way to "HEAR" what those controls do is exagerate them. If you want to hear what attack does, first put your threshold way down so that it really chokes each hit. Then go from 0ms and slowly increase the attack time. You'll hear more and more of the transient coming through. Usually by about 3 or 4 ms, you're at a useable attack rate. Same with release. Go extreme and see what happens.

As far as ratio, it works like this: At 2:1 ratio, every db that the signal passes the threshold will be cut in half. So, for example, if the signal goes 10db over the threshold, only 5db will be allowed to pass. At 4:1 ratio, if the signal goes 4 db over the threshold, only 1db will be allowed to pass. You just have to do some basic math. :)
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JD01
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Re: Master Compressor?

Post by JD01 »

I've got ratio figured out - there's some pretty clear science to that. I know what attack and released do from a physics point of view - being a cold scientific fucker without much artistry I'm struggling to feel what they do though.

I'll get there though - I'm working on a good drums track (Not my EZ Drummer bollocks) over the next week and playing with settings to gradually work out how to get things to pull together. (EQ too)
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Re: Master Compressor?

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WhiskeyJack wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:52 pm
Greg, why do you do multi levels of limiting? Would you mind going into that a bit more? the benefits of doing that opposed to other people adding compression and all that shit? or is that sort of a individual thing you'd rather not share too much detail on casue it makes your sound the way it sounds.
I use several limiters in a row only for "mastering". At my raw mix stage there's no compression/limiting going on. And I leave lots of headroom.

Anyway, once my stereo mix is kicked out, I bring it back into an empty project and drop like 5 or 6 limiters on it. The first one is set so it just starts to compress the mix a little. Then I stop it there. The second limiter just starts to compress what the first one did, then I stop it. And so on and so on. I build back up the makeup gain with each step. If things start getting too ugly too fast, I go back and tame each limiter a little. If things get weird between limiters, I'll sometimes drop an EQ in there if it's not too bad. But not usually. What I end up is IMO a pretty transparent "master" that is loud and punchy enough without being totally destroyed. It is technically totally destroyed, but it doesn't sound like it. I think my masters play well everywhere and they sound good to me. Several steps of mild limiting seems to act better to me than just one limiter set to murder.
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JD01
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Re: Master Compressor?

Post by JD01 »

that's an interesting technique - its gotta be slightly unusual - where did you pick that up?
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Re: Master Compressor?

Post by Greg_L »

JD01 wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:04 pm that's an interesting technique - its gotta be slightly unusual - where did you pick that up?
Fuck if I know. I've been doing it a long time. I might have invented it myself. I really don't know. I have heard of pro mastering guys doing it like that, but I don't know if it's a happy coincidence or if I actually stole the idea.
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rammer24
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Re: Master Compressor?

Post by rammer24 »

It's probably un-usual only because back in the day, when "mastering" and "limiting" was invented, it probably wasn't an option because they'd have to actually own a bunch of limiters. I bet if software existed back then, someone might have invented it. It probably would have been named after someone, like "Greg_L Mastering technique". He would have written books on it, and claimed that there are a few secret techniques that he won't reveal unless you sign up for his snail-mail mastering course.

Then, he would have killed a bitch, shown up in court with an afro, , and gone to jail.

Rock on.
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Re: Master Compressor?

Post by rayc »

I looked for a LIKE button because Rami made me laugh with that last comment.
This is a good thread MOSTLY because I've heard the result of these processes often enough to know they sound good and THAT'S the point in the long run.
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Re: Master Compressor?

Post by Bboot »

I run a master buss compressor. It took me a while to find one I really like but I settled with the Fg-grey from slate digital. It's a model of the SSL G series bus comp, but it has a side-chain filter so all the bottom end doesn't have to activate the compression. I only use a little bit of comp but I do throw it on fairly early. I just do a bit of volume automation on the tracks to bring the dynamics back. I do like the sound of it, but too much can make shit sound really pumpy and stretched out.

Then I run that through a D.O.D flanger pedal and it's good to go! :happytrees:
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Re: Master Compressor?

Post by HatfieldCreek »

For me it depends on what I'm recording, and what format the end product is going to be. If I'm tracking a metal band that's planning on selling it as mp3s I always compress the master slightly (so I can get a feel for what the mp3 encoding compression is going to do to the mix). If it's singer songwriter stuff that's going out of vinyl, it's as clean as possible (sometimes I'll skip the master limiter as well and just focus on mixing so it's not needed). I've found that there are a lot of people that use compression and limiting to the point where it destroys the mix rather than helps it along, hell I was guilty of that when I was starting out. It's got to be a conscious decision on my end, if it's there for effect, it's there for effect, if it's there to help the mix, is there anything else I can do to correct the areas that need help type of thing.
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Re: Master Compressor?

Post by rayc »

I've been experimenting with Greg's stacked limiter technique. I have poor ears for critical listening and don't really know what I like so I'm behind the 8 ball somewhat BUT I wanted to hear/listen/try to learn so have had a go.
I've set up a separate project template into which I've imported a finished stereo mix.
the stereo/master buss has ReaEQ then 4 different Limiters.
The preset for the EQ is a little lift to the top end because my set up seems a little dark but all can be tweaked as needed obviously.
Each of the Limiters, Classic Master Limiter, JS Loser Limiter, something else and then the Modern Limiter, is set minimally - and reset each time I use it as they respond differently to diff sources obviously.
The user interface for each is vastly different which doesn't help.
I turn them all off then bring them on one at a time listening to the interaction and adjusting a little as I go.
I haven't done well with it yet BUT I think I'm learning to hear a bit better.
On my latest project I left one of them OFF as it caused hiccough further up the chain.
Here's the current project as a mix and then faux mastered - turn down a little when you listen to the faux master and things are a little clearer/cleaner. i don't understand that much at the moment either...
There's a little compression and EQ on the "mix" version.

and

Obviously this is a bad example of the process but it has been an interesting listen & learn for me. I'll still get mastering done by a pro as I know my short comings but I'm keen to educate my ears.
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Re: Master Compressor?

Post by Greg_L »

That's not bad Ray. I'm listening on headphones right now because it's 5 am, but I can tell it's definitely louder without being completely sonically murdered. I'll have a listen again later through the big speakers.

One thing you can do is just pick one limiter and repeat it. You don' need a bunch of different limiters for my method, you just need one limiter to be used a bunch of times in a row. But you could use different ones if you want. I prefer to just use one type of limiter because it's predictable.
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Re: Master Compressor?

Post by Armistice »

I didn't know this was an "official" technique! Somewhere along the way I started using 2 x GClip and then Event Horizon on top of each other, so similar concept - someone must have suggested it somewhere, as I certainly didn't think it up. I'll have a listen tomorrow ray with luck. My ears are pining for silence right now.
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Re: Master Compressor?

Post by JD01 »

Armistice wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:30 am I didn't know this was an "official" technique! Somewhere along the way I started using 2 x GClip and then Event Horizon on top of each other, so similar concept - someone must have suggested it somewhere, as I certainly didn't think it up. I'll have a listen tomorrow ray with luck. My ears are pining for silence right now.
What's GClip? I use Event Horizon on your recommendation, but that's it on my master buss.
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Re: Master Compressor?

Post by Greg_L »

Armistice wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:30 am I didn't know this was an "official" technique!
It's official title is "Teh Gerg Technique". :robus:
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