Sort of a music theory question.

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rammer24
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Sort of a music theory question.

Post by rammer24 »

Don't worry. This isn't about timing, so we don't have to worry about a bunch of fucking monkeys trying to turn a simple 4/4 into 7 fucking 4 with their twisted lack of common sense. :facepalm:

This is a chord/note question. I hope I can explain this clearly.

Ok, I attached a 20 second clip of an old song I did years ago, that I want to re-record. Don't worry about the sound quality. This was done in a shitty room with shitty equipment and very little recording skills at the time.

But I want to know if what I'm doing is ok.

The chord progression is B, D#m, A, C#m.

Now, I'm only interested in the second chord, the D#m. A D#m has an A# in it. But if you listen, you'll hear that I'm sustaining a B note through that D#m (which has an A# in it). B and A# are only a semi-tone apart. I'm thinking it's not "supposed" to work. But I think it does work, or am I still hearing it through the same in-experienced ears I had when I recorded it?

Can I sustain that B over a chord that has an A#? Is this kind of thing "done" often? I hope I explained my problem properly.
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Armistice
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Re: Sort of a music theory question.

Post by Armistice »

It sounds OK to me Rami - LOL - I'm at work so I had to scribble down the chromatic scale from D# to D and count the steps to work it out.

Now that I can see it in front of me, drop the whole thing down 6 semi-tones and it's no different from whether an F would sound good against an Am - and given C Am F G is your classic "turnaround" chord sequence, an F will always sound good against any of those chords.

And yes you're using a different chord sequence but the principal is the same, in my head anyway. Proceed! :biggrin:
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Re: Sort of a music theory question.

Post by rammer24 »

Armistice wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:05 pm an F would sound good against an Am -
Thanx man, that makes sense. An Am has an E in it. So if an F works with that, then my B should work with a D#m.

I wish I knew a bit more theory. I don't know anything about "Circle of fifths" and all that stuff. I know just enough to be able to get by. I'm beginning to think that the surrounding chords matter. That B with a D#m might not work in another context, but I guess it works with the chord progression going on. I'm thinking the key might matter, too. Since this song is in B, I guess that B note works with all those chords.

Thanx a lot Armi.
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Re: Sort of a music theory question.

Post by ido1957 »

Dissonant is as dissonant does. Some people call it artistic licence. I avoid them. This IMHO I would avoid.
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Re: Sort of a music theory question.

Post by rammer24 »

ido1957 wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:11 pm Dissonant is as dissonant does. Some people call it artistic licence. I avoid them. This IMHO I would avoid.
So, you're saying it sounds dissonant and I should change it?

I got no problem changing it. It's a lead part. I can drop that B to an A# for that one chord, or come up with a different part all together.
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Re: Sort of a music theory question.

Post by JohnnyAmato »

I would say go with it. D#m is in the key of Bmaj, so it's not out of key. Sometimes, notes a semi-tone apart played at the same time can clash, but here, you're A# is part of the context of the chord, so it doesn't clash as much. By throwing in the A chord after, you're momentarily in B Mixolydian, but that's after the fact.

A simple concept I sometimes teach my students when they are putting their own progressions with chords is what I sometimes call the "major minor rule";

In any major key, take the notes of the scale and play the corresponding chords with each one to this pattern;
Maj - minor - minor - Maj - Maj - minor, diminished, Maj. You'll find that every note from every chord is in the original key. On the guitar, it's easiest to see the relationship with the key of Emaj;
Emaj-F#m-Abm-Amaj-Bmaj-C#m-Ebdiminished-Emaj. Every note from every chord is in the key of Emaj. You might know all this, just thought I'd bring it up.

Besides, in all music, rules are meant to be broken. If it sounds good, go with it. And here, you're notes aren't really clashing because the A# is part of a chord. Sounds kind of neat, actually.
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Re: Sort of a music theory question.

Post by rammer24 »

Thanx so much for that, Johnny. That was very helpful, man. I'll go with it when I re-record it and also try a few alternatives just to see. But your explanation at least assures me that it's not "Wrong".

This is gold. I'm going to play with this:

"In any major key, take the notes of the scale and play the corresponding chords with each one to this pattern;
Maj - minor - minor - Maj - Maj - minor, diminished, Maj. You'll find that every note from every chord is in the original key. On the guitar, it's easiest to see the relationship with the key of Emaj;
Emaj-F#m-Abm-Amaj-Bmaj-C#m-Ebdiminished-Emaj. Every note from every chord is in the key of Emaj. You might know all this, just thought I'd bring it up."

Thanx. I really appreciate that.
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Re: Sort of a music theory question.

Post by Greg_L »

Uuuhhhhh.........
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Re: Sort of a music theory question.

Post by rammer24 »

Greg_L wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:30 pmUuuhhhhh.........
Basically, I was playing a B over an A#. And my question was....


...wait for it.....




To B or not to B.





I'll show myself out. :oops:
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Re: Sort of a music theory question.

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Re: Sort of a music theory question.

Post by Greg_L »

Sounds fine to me. If it sounds fine to you, then none of this theory bullshit means jack shit.
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Re: Sort of a music theory question.

Post by JohnnyAmato »

In the end, that was basically my point.
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Re: Sort of a music theory question.

Post by rammer24 »

Greg_L wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:40 pm Sounds fine to me. If it sounds fine to you, then none of this theory bullshit means jack shit.
I agree. I guess that since it's an old tune, I wanted to make sure I wasn't just used to it while not realizing that it sounds off. Sometimes you hear something and, through memory, you're hearing it through the same ears that you first heard it through, if that makes sense. So, I doubted my perception on this one a bit.
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Re: Sort of a music theory question.

Post by Greg_L »

rammer24 wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:45 pm So, I doubted my perception on this one a bit.
Yeah, but you don't need to. Nothing wrong with wanting to understand theory, I'd love to know it a little myself, but IMO you can't ever let it override your gut or natural instincts. It's like taking a test in school. The one and only thing I remember from SAT prep was this: If you get stumped, your first gut instinct is probably the right answer. As you sit and stare and over analyze the problem, it's gonna make you second guess everything and actually take you away from the right answer. That stuck with me, and goddamn, it applies in all areas of life. Always go with your gut. Music made by instinct and feel is ALWAYS better than music made by strictly following the laws of theory. This is a strong case of if it sounds good, then the theory can fuck off. And if these guys are right, your gut just happens to work with the theory anyway, so it's all good!
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Re: Sort of a music theory question.

Post by rammer24 »

Greg_L wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:58 pm Yeah, but you don't need to. Nothing wrong with wanting to understand theory, I'd love to know it a little myself, but IMO you can't ever let it override your gut or natural instincts. It's like taking a test in school. The one and only thing I remember from SAT prep was this: If you get stumped, your first gut instinct is probably the right answer. As you sit and stare and over analyze the problem, it's gonna make you second guess everything and actually take you away from the right answer. That stuck with me, and goddamn, it applies in all areas of life. Always go with your gut. Music made by instinct and feel is ALWAYS better than music made by strictly following the laws of theory. This is a strong case of if it sounds good, then the theory can fuck off. And if these guys are right, your gut just happens to work with the theory anyway, so it's all good!
You're so right about trusting you gut. It really is never wrong. My insticts are always right, and I always end up punching myself in the head when I didn't follow them. Whether it was a relationship, joining a band, taking a gig, anything....My isntincts are never wrong.

As far as theory and all that, I wouldn't mind knowing a little more, but I'm actually glad I know what I know and not much more. I think not being bogged down by theoretical knowledge allows you to be more creative. I've been lucky to play with a lot of really good guitar players in my life (which is probably what helped me with my guitar playing), but I can't think of one of them that can write anything original. I've known guys that can shred, guys that were great blues players, jazz, guys that can play any style well, you name it. But many of them have admitted that they don't have an original bone in their body and they always fall back into some chord progression that's already been done 100 times whenever they try to write something.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with knowing theory inside out. I admire it. But it doesn't necessarilly make you more or less creative.
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Re: Sort of a music theory question.

Post by Greg_L »

rammer24 wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:07 am
You're so right about trusting you gut. It really is never wrong. My insticts are always right, and I always end up punching myself in the head when I didn't follow them. Whether it was a relationship, joining a band, taking a gig, anything....My isntincts are never wrong.

As far as theory and all that, I wouldn't mind knowing a little more, but I'm actually glad I know what I know and not much more. I think not being bogged down by theoretical knowledge allows you to be more creative. I've been lucky to play with a lot of really good guitar players in my life (which is probably what helped me with my guitar playing), but I can't think of one of them that can write anything original. I've known guys that can shred, guys that were great blues players, jazz, guys that can play any style well, you name it. But many of them have admitted that they don't have an original bone in their body and they always fall back into some chord progression that's already been done 100 times whenever they try to write something.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with knowing theory inside out. I admire it. But it doesn't necessarilly make you more or less creative.
Right! I feel the same way. I know the most bare bones basic bits of major/minor theory and that's enough. I'm actually very hesitant to even accidentally learn more. Lol. I think I should, but I don't like what it can turn into.
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Re: Sort of a music theory question.

Post by JohnnyAmato »

I always write by feel, also. I break the rules often myself. I just wanted to let you know why or how your note did or didn't work, since it seemed like that's what you were basically asking. Wasn't trying to toot my own horn or anything, was just being friendly :)
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Re: Sort of a music theory question.

Post by Greg_L »

JohnnyAmato wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:16 am I always write by feel, also. I break the rules often myself. I just wanted to let you know why or how your note did or didn't work, since it seemed like that's what you were basically asking. Wasn't trying to toot my own horn or anything, was just being friendly :)
I didn't take anything you said that way, and I don't think Rami did either. We're just talking. Your explanation was good and helpful.

You also said "mixolydian". JD will need a cigarette and a nap if he reads that! :biggrin:
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Re: Sort of a music theory question.

Post by rammer24 »

JohnnyAmato wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:16 am I always write by feel, also. I break the rules often myself. I just wanted to let you know why or how your note did or didn't work, since it seemed like that's what you were basically asking. Wasn't trying to toot my own horn or anything, was just being friendly :)
Yeah, I don't see and I hope you didn't get the impression I was anything but appreciative of your knowledge and help. We were just shooting the shit after the fact. :cool:
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Re: Sort of a music theory question.

Post by Lt. Bob »

first off ears rule and if it sounds like what you want then it's what you want.


It doesn't sound very unusual to me actually ...... songs have used that descending line over a stationary tonic since forever.
Pretty common in symphonic music and jazz and rock picked it up. Hell, that's what's happening in the harmony of 'Please, Please Me" by the Beatles.

if you want to think in theory terms you could call it all kinds of things .... it's a D#m with a raised 5 for instance..

But more importantly it s also a Bmaj7 .... that's really all it is ...... when you drop the octave a half step, that's a major 7.
If it's not the octave then it's an inverted maj7.

So you're basically play a B drone under a major 7 chord ..... OR you could think of it as a B chord with a descending line.
And the way you're using it is short enough that it's really a 'passing chord' anyway'.

Personally I like it and use that exact thing a lot ..... I really like the complexity of the resulting sound.
I use that descending thing or a suspension as a passing chord all the time.
But doing that does means that you're gonna have notes that are considered to 'clash' to some people. Ignore them ..... they are wrong. :D

I think it's a far more interesting sound and I play everything that way.

example ...... let's say in the key of E to have a starting point.
I VERY often use an Esus instead of the A when I'm going to the IV chord.
Some people find that B against the A clashes but I like it ..... I like it enough that I'll use a tonic suspension instead of the IV chord in an awful lot of songs.
So if I'm playing Brown Eyed freakin' Girl, instead of the C ( IV chord ) .... I play a Gsus.
It's a characteristic of my playing ..... when I'll first start playing with someone they don't know what the hell chords I'm playing. After a while .... haha ... Reuben told me "well, I know that somehow that thing you do is an E chord!"
:lollers:

So it sounds fine and is actually not that weird a thing to do
Last edited by Lt. Bob on Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:46 am, edited 4 times in total.
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