Sort of a music theory question.

Need a helping hand to make sure you do it right, first time? Got some good advice to pass on, so no-one makes the same mistakes you did? This is your forum.
User avatar
Lt. Bob
Posts: 6558
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:02 pm

Re: Sort of a music theory question.

Post by Lt. Bob »

JD01 wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:08 am
Its that note in the minor scale which isn't in the minor pentatonic scale that makes you sound like Randy Rhoads. If you were in E Minor played a C note, thats a minor 6th. A decendiing lead run that ends on the minor 6ths is very RR style thing to do.
no ..... if you're in Em a C is just a sixth.
It's a minor six interval but in the context of key that's not necessarily the case.
If you're in Emajor then it is the minor 6 .... but if you're in Em and run the Em scale you'll see that the C is right on the Em scale so in that key it's just a sixth.

That's one of the issues people have .... in music the same thing can be defined in different ways depending on if you're analyzing in a key or simply
talking two note intervals.

And Greg .... you absolutely know what a minor 6 chord is.
You know that standard thing where you play C, Am.. F and G? Just a standard progression that you've played a zillion times.
The Am in that progression is a minor 6.
User avatar
JD01
Posts: 15816
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:11 pm
Location: Wales, UK

Re: Sort of a music theory question.

Post by JD01 »

Lt. Bob wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:40 am
JD01 wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:08 am
Its that note in the minor scale which isn't in the minor pentatonic scale that makes you sound like Randy Rhoads. If you were in E Minor played a C note, thats a minor 6th. A decendiing lead run that ends on the minor 6ths is very RR style thing to do.
no ..... if you're in Em a C is just a sixth.
It's a minor six interval but in the context of key that's not necessarily the case.
If you're in Emajor then it is the minor 6 .... but if you're in Em and run the Em scale you'll see that the C is right on the Em scale so in that key it's just a sixth.

That's one of the issues people have .... in music the same thing can be defined in different ways depending on if you're analyzing in a key or simply
talking two note intervals.

And Greg .... you absolutely know what a minor 6 chord is.
You know that standard thing where you play C, Am.. F and G? Just a standard progression that you've played a zillion times.
The Am in that progression is a minor 6.
Good point, bob!
User avatar
Greg_L
Posts: 20629
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:07 pm
Location: Where the knuckle meets the poophole

Re: Sort of a music theory question.

Post by Greg_L »

Lt. Bob wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:40 am
And Greg .... you absolutely know what a minor 6 chord is.
You know that standard thing where you play C, Am.. F and G? Just a standard progression that you've played a zillion times.
The Am in that progression is a minor 6.
Ah, see I know that C and A minor go together like cake and ice cream, but I didn't know the A minor is a "minor 6th". I just go by sound. It sounds good, so I don't care what it's called or why it's called what it's called. :crazy: :coolstorybro:

I Iook at it like this...99% of the time I'm playing a major chord anywhere on the neck and I can drop three frets and play whatever that is minor. It sounds good and doo-woppy every time.
Rebel Yell
Rob Aylestone
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Sort of a music theory question.

Post by Rob Aylestone »

I'm confused by this minor 6th business - is this one of the US/UK differences? The Major chord C - has C, E and G. C6 would add the A, and Cm6 would add the A, but also drop the E to Eb. C6 contains the same notes as Am7 - A, C,E and G. This similarity is also why pedal steels are often tuned to C6 tunings, because of the link with the relative minor 7 chord.

In Lt Bob's C, Am, F, G progression, the Am is just Am isn't it - Am6 has an F sharp? If you are talking about the relations ship to the key signature C, the Am is simply the 6th - but if we are using C Major as the key, then it's a Major 6th, as it's only minor when A is the chord root.

Using the I-VI-IV-V system for C-Am-F-G works as the VI chord is usually minor.

This should be called circle of confusion because of what happens when everyone tries to explain what they know in their head, in words.

We also need to think of Am as C's relative minor - which again dirties the water when attempting to explain what happens. I suspect we all actually know exactly how this works - but struggle explaining it!
User avatar
JD01
Posts: 15816
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:11 pm
Location: Wales, UK

Re: Sort of a music theory question.

Post by JD01 »

Rob Aylestone wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:36 pm I'm confused by this minor 6th business - is this one of the US/UK differences? The Major chord C - has C, E and G. C6 would add the A, and Cm6 would add the A, but also drop the E to Eb. C6 contains the same notes as Am7 - A, C,E and G. This similarity is also why pedal steels are often tuned to C6 tunings, because of the link with the relative minor 7 chord.

In Lt Bob's C, Am, F, G progression, the Am is just Am isn't it - Am6 has an F sharp? If you are talking about the relations ship to the key signature C, the Am is simply the 6th - but if we are using C Major as the key, then it's a Major 6th, as it's only minor when A is the chord root.

Using the I-VI-IV-V system for C-Am-F-G works as the VI chord is usually minor.

This should be called circle of confusion because of what happens when everyone tries to explain what they know in their head, in words.

We also need to think of Am as C's relative minor - which again dirties the water when attempting to explain what happens. I suspect we all actually know exactly how this works - but struggle explaining it!
Its just me being lazy in my thinking. Don't worry about it. Its just a sixth of a minor scale.
User avatar
rammer24
Posts: 2736
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:41 pm

Re: Sort of a music theory question.

Post by rammer24 »

This conversation makes me sixth to my stomach.
User avatar
JD01
Posts: 15816
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:11 pm
Location: Wales, UK

Re: Sort of a music theory question.

Post by JD01 »

Rob Aylestone wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:36 pm This should be called circle of confusion because of what happens when everyone tries to explain what they know in their head, in words.
^this^
User avatar
JD01
Posts: 15816
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:11 pm
Location: Wales, UK

Re: Sort of a music theory question.

Post by JD01 »

rammer24 wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:39 pm This conversation makes me sixth to my stomach.
Fucking hell, Rami. You should be doing standup... in the 1950s
User avatar
rammer24
Posts: 2736
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:41 pm

Re: Sort of a music theory question.

Post by rammer24 »

They had comedy in the 50's?
User avatar
JD01
Posts: 15816
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:11 pm
Location: Wales, UK

Re: Sort of a music theory question.

Post by JD01 »

rammer24 wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:42 pm They had comedy in the 50's?
See Exhibit A:
rammer24 wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:39 pm This conversation makes me sixth to my stomach.
Evidently not! You sound like my father in law.
User avatar
Greg_L
Posts: 20629
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:07 pm
Location: Where the knuckle meets the poophole

Re: Sort of a music theory question.

Post by Greg_L »

Rob Aylestone wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:36 pm I'm confused by this minor 6th business - is this one of the US/UK differences? The Major chord C - has C, E and G. C6 would add the A, and Cm6 would add the A, but also drop the E to Eb. C6 contains the same notes as Am7 - A, C,E and G. This similarity is also why pedal steels are often tuned to C6 tunings, because of the link with the relative minor 7 chord.

In Lt Bob's C, Am, F, G progression, the Am is just Am isn't it - Am6 has an F sharp? If you are talking about the relations ship to the key signature C, the Am is simply the 6th - but if we are using C Major as the key, then it's a Major 6th, as it's only minor when A is the chord root.

Using the I-VI-IV-V system for C-Am-F-G works as the VI chord is usually minor.

This should be called circle of confusion because of what happens when everyone tries to explain what they know in their head, in words.

We also need to think of Am as C's relative minor - which again dirties the water when attempting to explain what happens. I suspect we all actually know exactly how this works - but struggle explaining it!
That's why none of this shit fucking matters unless you're some session musician being handed sheet music and you have to play it as it's written.

In the real world, music theory is like the bible - interpreted differently by everyone often with disastrous results.
Rebel Yell
User avatar
JD01
Posts: 15816
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:11 pm
Location: Wales, UK

Re: Sort of a music theory question.

Post by JD01 »

Greg_L wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:45 pm In the real world, music theory is like the bible - interpreted differently by everyone often with disastrous results.
Its not like you to get stuck into politics and religion, Greg.
User avatar
Greg_L
Posts: 20629
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:07 pm
Location: Where the knuckle meets the poophole

Re: Sort of a music theory question.

Post by Greg_L »

JD01 wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:46 pm
Its not like you to get stuck into politics and religion, Greg.
But it is like me to point out bullshit when I see it.
Rebel Yell
User avatar
JD01
Posts: 15816
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:11 pm
Location: Wales, UK

Re: Sort of a music theory question.

Post by JD01 »

Greg_L wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:45 pm That's why none of this shit fucking matters unless you're some session musician being handed sheet music and you have to play it as it's written.
This is also true.
User avatar
rammer24
Posts: 2736
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:41 pm

Re: Sort of a music theory question.

Post by rammer24 »

JD01 wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:44 pm You sound like my father in law.
Yeah, but I bet I taste better.
User avatar
Lt. Bob
Posts: 6558
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:02 pm

Re: Sort of a music theory question.

Post by Lt. Bob »

all the rules are just there for learning purposes ...... just a guideline ..... I played bassoon in symphony ...... never heard a conductor nor ANY classical musician so much as mention "That's a Cma7 with a G in the bass" or anything similar ........ not once.

Ya' know, basically western music is simply the works of J.S. Bach analyzed and the things he did a lot are things you're supposed to do and the things he didn't do became no-nos.
He's dead now so we can relax.

:lollers2:
User avatar
rammer24
Posts: 2736
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:41 pm

Re: Sort of a music theory question.

Post by rammer24 »

[BBvideo=560,315]https://youtu.be/Q5h1oxAvc6A[/BBvideo]
User avatar
miroslav
Posts: 1819
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:30 pm

Re: Sort of a music theory question.

Post by miroslav »

Greg_L wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:01 am I don't even know what a minor 6th is.
It's somewhere in-between the 5th and 7th. :P
Greg_L wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:45 pm That's why none of this shit fucking matters unless you're some session musician being handed sheet music and you have to play it as it's written.
Yeah...you don't need to get totally hung up on theory nuances.
I had that stuff spoon fed to me for years when I was taking piano and guitar lessons...and it's nice to know all those things...but TBH, for most Pop/Rock/Country/Punk/Rap/Metal/...you can just go with basics and play what your ear tells you is good, without needing to know if it's a minor 6th or 7th...etc.

I still like to sit at the piano when I'm working out songs...and while I can play all the different chords, I sometimes have to stop and consider WTF it is I'm playing when it's an odd one...and I'll grab my chord/theory book and confirm it...etc...but I could just play it an not give a fuck, though I tend to write down at least the basic song structure of all my compositions...so with that, I like to at least know I'm writing down the right chords and time sigs and all that...but otherwise, I rarely get into it deep these days like I use to....and I need to refresh my memory when I try to.

Some guys spend a lot of time arguing about lead scales and all that shit...I just play. I mean, I know what scale I'm in, but like... am I crossing over from a Minor Pentatonic to a Major to Mixolydian to whatever...mmm, I tend not to care all that much. :D
User avatar
Armistice
Posts: 10702
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:06 pm
Location: Orstralia

Re: Sort of a music theory question.

Post by Armistice »

My head hurts. :shock:
User avatar
Lt. Bob
Posts: 6558
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:02 pm

Re: Sort of a music theory question.

Post by Lt. Bob »

I actually don't know what scale I'm in..... if you asked me what key I'm in I'd have to stop and think about it.
modes? lol ... what the fuck is a mode?
I know the stuff .... majored in composition and sax/bassoon.

But I just don't think that way ..... I just play .... I'm as curious as everyone else to see what I'll play.
Post Reply