I suck at re-tracking -- it never sounds the same; tips?

Need a helping hand to make sure you do it right, first time? Got some good advice to pass on, so no-one makes the same mistakes you did? This is your forum.
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SweetDan
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I suck at re-tracking -- it never sounds the same; tips?

Post by SweetDan »

One of the most frustrating of this hobby for me is having to re-track. Specifically, the part of re-tracking where the sound/feel of the original session can't be re-captured. I might play the notes better on the second go-round, but it doesn't have the same "vibe", it doesn't sound exactly the same. You can tell, even if it's a rough mix or a demo, that it's not the same.

(It gets all the more complicated if you have to change keys! Concrete examples: http://eastofcleveland.com/m/shortSeaso ... sSolos.mp3 - too low, but feels great; http://eastofcleveland.com/m/shortSeaso ... ch_Bbm.mp3 - better key for my voice (yeah, I don't have words yet!), but doesn't have the same groove.)

I've tried to be careful taking notes of which instrument was used and how (e.g., if using the tele, was it the neck, or bridge pickup? or both?), effects and amp settings, etc. I try to carefully tune. I try to keep the re-tracking session within a few days of the original session, so that I don't have to change strings. Doesn't matter; it never sounds the same.

What things have you done to minimize the differences session to session? How do your particular tips/tricks/techniques work out?
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rammer24
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Re: I suck at re-tracking -- it never sounds the same; tips?

Post by rammer24 »

I don't have any tips. I'll just throw this out there.......Are you sure the original had a better "feel"? Or are you just really attached to it since that's what you're used to hearing? Maybe a good example of needing to step away from something before really assessing it. I'd re-track, step away from both for a few weeks and then do a blind test with an open mind.
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paulman
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Re: I suck at re-tracking -- it never sounds the same; tips?

Post by paulman »

I am in the same boat right now with Tennessee Whiskey. The lead guitar tone isn't exactly what I wanted, but I like the performance and don't feel like an imitation of it will be the same. I was REALLY in the mood when I played that. So my concern there isn't keeping the same sound (since that's what I want to change), but revisiting the raw emotion I had that night. Same thing with the vocal. I retracked it last night, and it's definitely technically better, but I didn't feel the same when I did it. The first time I felt like Joe Cocker, but on the retrack I couldn't quite get back into that headspace. I'm usually willing to put emotion over technical perfection, but I feel like this song really has to be right on all counts. I've got some cookies coming tomorrow that will help me with the vibe without affecting my vocal range. That is the most direct way for me to get in the zone, if you're into that.

I'm terrible at taking notes, so I usually end up with a slightly different sound when I retrack. Unless it's vocals, in which case I always use the same preamp setting. The only difference might be how close I am to the mic.

So I guess I don't really have much in the way of tips, just letting you know I feel your pain.
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paulman
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Re: I suck at re-tracking -- it never sounds the same; tips?

Post by paulman »

rammer24 wrote: Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:32 pm I don't have any tips. I'll just throw this out there.......Are you sure the original had a better "feel"? Or are you just really attached to it since that's what you're used to hearing? Maybe a good example of needing to step away from something before really assessing it. I'd re-track, step away from both for a few weeks and then do a blind test with an open mind.
I know I do that, getting attached to something that's not necessarily the best because I listen to it so much. Great advice.
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Re: I suck at re-tracking -- it never sounds the same; tips?

Post by Greg_L »

rammer24 wrote: Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:32 pm I don't have any tips. I'll just throw this out there.......Are you sure the original had a better "feel"? Or are you just really attached to it since that's what you're used to hearing? Maybe a good example of needing to step away from something before really assessing it. I'd re-track, step away from both for a few weeks and then do a blind test with an open mind.
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You're just attached to your first take.

For me personally, I don't even think about it. I don't really believe that magical takes are in short supply. I feel that if I did something awesome once, then I can do it again at will. It's just a confidence thing. I'm supremely confident in my abilities. I know that doesn't help you right here and now, but if you can work towards that kind of mindset then things get way way easier.
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paulman
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Re: I suck at re-tracking -- it never sounds the same; tips?

Post by paulman »

For me it's about focus. I can't always do it. My brain is all over the place, and when I am able to summon laser focus to get something done it does feel like magic to me. I can always play well, but getting it to the emotional level I want for a recording is not something that I can just toss off any time I decide to.

Or maybe I just need to record more instead of doing it in spurts, and I'd be more consistent.
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Re: I suck at re-tracking -- it never sounds the same; tips?

Post by Greg_L »

paulman wrote: Fri Sep 01, 2017 5:59 pm
Or maybe I just need to record more instead of doing it in spurts, and I'd be more consistent.
That would probably help. Lol.
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miroslav
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Re: I suck at re-tracking -- it never sounds the same; tips?

Post by miroslav »

Right...recording should be done as a continuous process whenever possible...rather than a track today, another one two weeks later....etc.
At least you try and knock out all the tracking over the course of 2-3 days...that way the feel stays with you much better.

Not sure when you're coming to the conclusion that you need to re-track...right away, or days/weeks later...?
I would suggest that next time you're tracking, whatever...don't do one track, do 3-5 takes, in quick succession.
You only stop long enough to reset the system or rewind the tape deck or whatever it is you are using.
Heck, when I'm tracking guitars, I won't even take the guitar off....I don't even stop to listen to the first take...I just do multiple takes in succession.

That's the only way you will be able to have the same sound and same feel, because nothing changes and you don't break stride doing them one after the other.
Then sit back and listen, and I'm sure you will find one that is the best sounding...and you know, if you flubbed a note or whatever...you have the other nearly identical takes to cut/paste from.

I don't know why some people get so obsessed with "THE PERFECT SINGLE TAKE"...and they'll keep doing one take over and over and over, and it's a constant battle between better feel VS better performance VS better tones in spots...etc.
If you do several rapid takes...at least one will be "near-perfect" and the others close, so if you have to make a few edits, it's still really your performance. If they all suck...take a break, and then repeat the process...several takes in rapid succession.

This has nothing to do with needed to practice before recording.
I mean, absolutely, you practice and practice until the performance is comfortable before you track...but even when you've practiced to death, and start to track, it's easy to miss a note enough to where it's noticeable.
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Re: I suck at re-tracking -- it never sounds the same; tips?

Post by paulman »

miroslav wrote: Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:47 pm Right...recording should be done as a continuous process whenever possible...rather than a track today, another one two weeks later....etc.
At least you try and knock out all the tracking over the course of 2-3 days...that way the feel stays with you much better.

Not sure when you're coming to the conclusion that you need to re-track...right away, or days/weeks later...?
I would suggest that next time you're tracking, whatever...don't do one track, do 3-5 takes, in quick succession.
You only stop long enough to reset the system or rewind the tape deck or whatever it is you are using.
Heck, when I'm tracking guitars, I won't even take the guitar off....I don't even stop to listen to the first take...I just do multiple takes in succession.

That's the only way you will be able to have the same sound and same feel, because nothing changes and you don't break stride doing them one after the other.
Then sit back and listen, and I'm sure you will find one that is the best sounding...and you know, if you flubbed a note or whatever...you have the other nearly identical takes to cut/paste from.

I don't know why some people get so obsessed with "THE PERFECT SINGLE TAKE"...and they'll keep doing one take over and over and over, and it's a constant battle between better feel VS better performance VS better tones in spots...etc.
If you do several rapid takes...at least one will be "near-perfect" and the others close, so if you have to make a few edits, it's still really your performance. If they all suck...take a break, and then repeat the process...several takes in rapid succession.

This has nothing to do with needed to practice before recording.
I mean, absolutely, you practice and practice until the performance is comfortable before you track...but even when you've practiced to death, and start to track, it's easy to miss a note enough to where it's noticeable.
That's exactly what I do. Take after take without stopping to listen. Even if I think I've got it, I'll still do more. That way I have plenty to work with, and Logic makes it very easy to switch between takes while editing. So I might have a really great take, but then when I listen to it it's got a problem spot or two. No problem, I've got several other takes I can patch into those spots seamlessly. But if I come back later to do more takes, it's probably not going to match.
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SweetDan
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Re: I suck at re-tracking -- it never sounds the same; tips?

Post by SweetDan »

miroslav wrote: Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:47 pm ...Not sure when you're coming to the conclusion that you need to re-track...right away, or days/weeks later...?
Days/weeks later. There are 2 cases in particular I'm thinking of:


1) I'm noodling around, and happen to come up with a "good" idea for a tune. I might throw in a bass- and drum-track, or keys, or whatever is ancillary to the main idea of the proto-tune. But then when I get around to completing and tracking the entire song, days/weeks later, what I end up with often feels sterile or stiff compared the original seed of the idea.

Compare the noodly guitar behind the proto-vocals at 3:54-4:25 in my examples; the lower-keyed one has a great feel, the other is stiff; tracking the two was separated at least a week while I mulled over doing it in a higher key.


2) So I've tried the thing you suggest:
miroslav wrote: Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:47 pm ...If you do several rapid takes...at least one will be "near-perfect" and the others close, so if you have to make a few edits, it's still really your performance. If they all suck...take a break, and then repeat the process...several takes in rapid succession...
and worked some things up. Then they might get submitted here or elsewhere for feedback, some of which may be to "re-track X or Y parts". (The suggestion is rarely "spend 80 hours editing that track"...but it'd be interesting to know how much time everyone spends splicing and pushing waveforms around...) By then it's at least several days out from the first session, and "the magic is gone".


What I'm wondering is what tips/techniques people have to bring the magic back. And if there are no tricks that work, what else can you do besides resigning yourselves to throwing it all away?

EDIT: added timestamps
awesome youtube comment of the day
Lol it's still less satanic than whatever rituals Katie Perry and Taylor Swift do in their performances. 😂
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Re: I suck at re-tracking -- it never sounds the same; tips?

Post by miroslav »

I don't know about any "magic"...but again, the best thing you can do is condense your recording sessions...that way you stay in the groove/vibe/magic....whatever you want to call it.

Coming back to stuff over days/weeks in bits-n-pieces is never going feel the same.
I also think you have to considers that being inspired for a few minutes, and comping up with a piece of something...and then actually working it out so that it's a complete track or song....are two different things.
I think people will come up with a little phrase or a guitar lick...and it sounds really great, and from there,everything else is just stuff in their imagination...that's what they think is "magic".
How yto pull the completed song out of what you "imagined"...that's something you have to work on.

I think one of the key things is repetition. IOW...when you get those few notes that you think are "magic", don't just lay them down and then walk away for two weeks. Sit there and keep going over it, beat it out...flesh out the rest of the song or recording production. Work it until you really have most of it sorted out before you put it away...then when you come back, it's not just some bits and an idea in your head.
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Re: I suck at re-tracking -- it never sounds the same; tips?

Post by rammer24 »

LOL! OK, I see what's going on here. Now I know. :)
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Re: I suck at re-tracking -- it never sounds the same; tips?

Post by Farview »

No one but you knows what the original "magic take" sounded like but you.
No one besides you will be able to tell the difference in tone, since they can't A/B it with the original that they never heard.

As far as punching in rhythm takes goes, I always left the amp miked and the controls where they were until I was done with the rhythms. There will still be slight differences due to humidity and such, but it will be close enough.

Please keel in mind, only recording engineers will care about slight differences between takes. The audience doesn't give a shit.
Last edited by Farview on Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I suck at re-tracking -- it never sounds the same; tips?

Post by Greg_L »

Farview wrote: Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:11 pm No one but you knows what the original "magic take" sounded like but you.
No one besides you will be able to tell the difference in tone, since they can't A/B it with the original that they never heard.

As far as punching in rhythm takes goes, I always left the amp liked and the controls where they were until I was done with the rhythms. There will still be slight differences due to humidity and such, but it will be close enough.

Please keel in mind, only recording engineers will care about slight differences between takes. The audience doesn't give a shit.
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Re: I suck at re-tracking -- it never sounds the same; tips?

Post by Minerman »

I try to do several passes at once, whether it's a vocal, rhythm guitar part, a lead guitar fill, bass line, even drums...Then I go through each take, sort out what sounds best to me, & use the best parts of each take comp'd together to make one good take...

Depending on what instrument, you will probably have to work on your edits, like a crossfade from one part to the next to make it sound natural, but it can be done...

As far as the vibe from the original take, that's just how you thought it should sound, but if you'll take a break from it, then go back to it, you'll realize it's what everybody has already said here: you were just attached to that take...

I consider myself pretty lucky to be using software compared to the old-school tape machines, as it's super easy to fix any mistakes, but it's also a double-edged knife because a few edits here/there are ok, but there's a line I draw for myself that I consider cheating, & I'll never improve my performance skills relying on editing, so I try to not make any mistakes while tracking...Bottom line for this: learn & know your parts before hitting the record button...
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Re: I suck at re-tracking -- it never sounds the same; tips?

Post by JD01 »

Been thinking about this - you're probably just not practising enough before you do your original take so that will end up with some quirks in it then you get used to how it sounds.

When I'm recording tracks I normally run through them two or three times before I press record just to make sure that I'm totally familiar with them. Not just the changes, but more the rhythm style and pattern of muting and stuff. My double tracking has got much, much better since I've started doing this... and it actually take me less time to get things that I'm really happy with.

I always do my 2nd tracks of double tracking on a different guitar (that I only use for double tracking) and it rarely gets used for more than one or two takes every week or so, as by the time I pick it up I know exactly what I'm going to do and its totally into muscle memory - at least for the short term.
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Re: I suck at re-tracking -- it never sounds the same; tips?

Post by witzendoz »

Its all about practice, the more you practice the easier this becomes. When I work as a session player I often have to drop in a bar or 2, I still need the feel of the song even if I am only playing a couple of bars, after a while it becomes easy.

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